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Share Post: Share on FacebookShare on TwitterShare on TumblrShare on Google+Share on MySpace  Post Number:#76  Unread postPosted: November 26th, 2017, 11:23 am

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Have been doing more thinking on this issue. The more research I do, I find that there are a lot of myths surrounding what we do to the electrical system, and how we do this.

If you will indulge me for this post, I will explain my thought process.

The design of the GW wiring is such that it has a power junction - see pic:
Attachment:
gl1200 charge system schematic.JPG
This is where the red wire from the starter solenoid is joined to the regulator output wire(s) before the regulator output wire goes to the starter solenoid. I found this to be a key junction in the installation of my external alternator, and JoeBarTeam has corroborated this as well by changing the wiring of the new regulator to suit the OEM installed wiring harness. His electrical system is now working well, and the dash voltage reading is correct.

The OEM schematics are quite detailed regardless of the bike, and all loads are after this junction (upstream from the junction) and mostly after the ignition switch. This is designed specifically to achieve a well operating electrical system. The only power going to the starter solenoid from the alternator is to charge the battery back to 100% after which the battery only receives a trickle charge.

JoeBarTeam mentions that the voltage drops and stays low when the driving lights are turned on - I would surmise that the power feed for these driving lights is from the battery. Voltage drop of 1.0 to 1.5 VDC. What should happen is there should be a voltage drop, then the regulator compensates for this drop and the electrical system voltage should return to the mean electrical system voltage of 14.2 VDC, plus or minus of course, but as close as possible.

Since the regulator is visually not compensating for this voltage drop, I am inclined to think that the regulator is sensing a large voltage drop and comparing it to the regulator internal reference voltage of 14.2 VDC and is increasing the alternator output to compensate, but not achieving the aim of returning to 14.2 VDC. Since the electrical system voltage is not increasing and returning to the regulator reference voltage of 14.2 VDC (or close to), the current in the electrical system is probably too high and damage to electrical components could occur, including the internal alternator.

if the electrical system voltage is extremely low, in this case by 1 to 1.5 VDC, the alternator output through the regulator has to be increased to compensate. This is how a regulator works.

Since the electrical system voltage drop is 1 to 1.5 VDC when the driving lights are turned on and the alternator output is not sufficient to compensate for this drop - this is corroborated by the fact the electrical system voltage does not return back to the mean value of 14.2 VDC - two issues may be at play. Where the load is connected into the electrical system is wrong, or the driving lights are a huge short bleeding power off to ground.

I submit that the issue is probably where the driving lights get power from. In this regard, I would recommend that the power connection for the driving lights be temporarily attached to where the regulator output wire is connected to the OEM harness red/white wires. The voltage at this junction is 14.2 VDC and since all electrical components are rated for 14.2 VDC - if not and just for 12 VDC, there would be a lot of electrical component failures - I surmise that the system will react to the additional load and the electrical system voltage will be maintained at or around 14.2 VDC, not the 13.2 to 12.7 VDC as it is operating now when the driving lights are turned on. The power feed for the lights can also be as I mentioned in my previous post after the ignition switch, or from the red wire to the ignition switch, but upstream of the power junction as shown in the attached schematic. If the power feed connection to the driving lights from the electrical system is at the output from the regulator, or on the wire going to the ignition switch, it will be live at all times and this must be considered if a permanent connection is considered.

Just my thoughts on the issue.

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Share Post: Share on FacebookShare on TwitterShare on TumblrShare on Google+Share on MySpace  Post Number:#77  Unread postPosted: November 26th, 2017, 2:31 pm

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Sounds super sound to me ...I will be trying this type of thinking on hooch

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Share Post: Share on FacebookShare on TwitterShare on TumblrShare on Google+Share on MySpace  Post Number:#78  Unread postPosted: November 26th, 2017, 3:12 pm

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With a Mofset regulator voltage will be very stable and not jump around as much, the only time you will get low readings is when the revs are too low for the load.
Here is the Buell repair link with the second hand Honda Mofset regulator that I used.
viewtopic.php?f=7&t=9139&hilit=Buell&start=15#p138432

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Share Post: Share on FacebookShare on TwitterShare on TumblrShare on Google+Share on MySpace  Post Number:#79  Unread postPosted: November 27th, 2017, 7:26 am

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hi oldwingers
i did a mistake when i wrote about the driving lights. with the voltage drop i ment the normal oem lights of the bike without accessory lamps. i also have driving lamps. they take together 36 watts, are directly wired to the battery through a relay and a fuse and i use them as day lights so i don't have to use the oem lights. with the oem lights i have 13 position leds and 4 brake leds that i can turn separetly on and of. this take only a few watts together.
the voltage drop of 1 to 1.5 volts are when i put the oem lights on or the driving lamps on or all lamps (with leds) at once. it doesn't matter what lamps i turn on for the voltage drop or the high of the voltage drop. this means for me that it doesn't matter how the driving lamps are wired in this case. right?

greez
joebarteam

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Share Post: Share on FacebookShare on TwitterShare on TumblrShare on Google+Share on MySpace  Post Number:#80  Unread postPosted: November 27th, 2017, 8:30 am

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Have to disagree. I agree with the voltage drop, but not that the voltage should stay at that level. The electrical system is designed so that when loads are applied, the voltage should drop but the regulator should increase the voltage output to compensate for this drop and the voltage should recover and return to the 14.2 VDC.

Where do all the position and extra brake lights get power from. Sounds to me that you have the same issue with these as well.

Put a voltmeter on the connection between the regulator output wire where it joins the red/white wire - confirm voltage at 14.2 VDC. Take the driving light(s) wire from the battery and connect to this connection. Start the bike and see how the electrical system works with this setup. Worst case is nothing changes and you can revert to how the driving lights were originally connected.

If it works and the electrical system reacts as I think it might, make this a permanent connection. Better still connect a 12 gauge wire to this location and install a new power bar that you can add loads to in the future. I would then look into the running/brake lights you have installed and determine how these are connected into the system, and rectify that connection.

My main focus is getting the system to react as it should, maintaining 14.2 VDC at all times.

Having failed all this, install an amp meter in the system and check the system current. Your bike has a 350 watt stator that will give you approximately 25 amps max at 14.2 VDC - I used 14.2 VDC because the regulator is designed to maintain an electrical system voltage of 14.2 VDC. Could be overloading the system.

Hope this helps.

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Share Post: Share on FacebookShare on TwitterShare on TumblrShare on Google+Share on MySpace  Post Number:#81  Unread postPosted: November 27th, 2017, 10:48 am

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i see your point of view and i will try it the way you tell me.

is it important how additional lights are wired when the voltage drop occurs when only the oem lights are on?
i even took away the fuse of the driving lights at this test.

the running leds are connected at a wire of the oem running lights with a switch in between and i did the same with the brake leds to the oem brake lights.

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Share Post: Share on FacebookShare on TwitterShare on TumblrShare on Google+Share on MySpace  Post Number:#82  Unread postPosted: November 27th, 2017, 1:27 pm

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Just use relays from the battery and you will reduce the load through the existing wiring and junctions. Your other potential current/voltage issue will be on the return side (negative/earth) connections.

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Share Post: Share on FacebookShare on TwitterShare on TumblrShare on Google+Share on MySpace  Post Number:#83  Unread postPosted: December 4th, 2017, 11:19 am

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Ansimp wrote:
Just use relays from the battery and you will reduce the load through the existing wiring and junctions. Your other potential current/voltage issue will be on the return side (negative/earth) connections.
hi,
i'm still working on these mods. my garage has outside temperature. we got snow. it makes working hard and my fingers do not properly.

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Share Post: Share on FacebookShare on TwitterShare on TumblrShare on Google+Share on MySpace  Post Number:#84  Unread postPosted: December 15th, 2017, 8:27 am

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hi,
i have all accessories rewired. instead of the battery connections i have them connected to the oem acc. fuse with 10A. the accessories are the driving lights, the running and stop leds and 2 cigarette lighters for the gps and the voltmeter. i think at max. some 35 watts all at the same time. the lights have also a relay and each a separate fuse.
i have made the leakage test as descripted in haynes. the ammeter shows 0 A. max 0.5 mA is ok. the voltmeter shows battery voltage.
i still have to do the charging test with and without lights and other consumers to see if charging is ok. i hope tomorrow. will see :-)

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Share Post: Share on FacebookShare on TwitterShare on TumblrShare on Google+Share on MySpace  Post Number:#85  Unread postPosted: December 15th, 2017, 1:58 pm

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Sounds good :popcorn:

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Share Post: Share on FacebookShare on TwitterShare on TumblrShare on Google+Share on MySpace  Post Number:#86  Unread postPosted: December 16th, 2017, 4:57 am

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hi,
the charging test is done. as long as i don't use any kind of lights i get 14.2 volts at 3000 u/min and about 13.6 volts at idle as expected (battery voltage is 12.6). the voltmeter and the gps over the cigarette lighters are on doing this test.
when i make the oem running lights or the driving lamps or i brake then the voltmeter drops to 12.0 volts and stays there untill they are off again. the unwiring from the battery to the acc. fuse has not change these results.
i still could change wiring from the acc. fuse to the red/white power junction but i think this will not change the behavior the oem running lights have because i wouldn't change them to the power junction. if i had a difference in charging between oem lights and acc. lights, then i would do this.

i think i have to check the return side (negative/earth) from the lights but how to do it right?

i need a helping thought :-)

tnx
joebarteam

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Share Post: Share on FacebookShare on TwitterShare on TumblrShare on Google+Share on MySpace  Post Number:#87  Unread postPosted: December 16th, 2017, 8:08 am

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For sure it now sounds like a grounding issue. As folks will be quick to note, the main grounding cable from the battery to the frame is inside the rear upper motor mount on the left side (clutch side) of the bike. That would be a good place to start and is often neglected (like almost always neglected). Since you have multiple symptoms, this main ground is highly suspect. If your issues were more specific, say to a single circuit, grouding to that individual circuit would be more likely. So, try removing, cleaning and re-installing that negative battery cable to the frame and see what happens. I would carefully inspect terminations for corrosion while at it.

EDIT: I believe there is also a common point ground inside the headlight shell. This could cause your symptom, but I would think a less likely culprit. If the main ground produces no joy, it'll be time to go inside the shell. The main ground is an easy first step - and should probably be tended anyway.

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Share Post: Share on FacebookShare on TwitterShare on TumblrShare on Google+Share on MySpace  Post Number:#88  Unread postPosted: December 16th, 2017, 11:59 am

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thnx desertrefugee
i'll check this first.
i was thinking about the common place for the oem running lights and my driving lamps and this would be the fuse block.
i'll check this too.

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Share Post: Share on FacebookShare on TwitterShare on TumblrShare on Google+Share on MySpace  Post Number:#89  Unread postPosted: December 16th, 2017, 12:29 pm

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Your bike has two grounds for the entire electrical system. The main is as desertrefugee has mentioned is the battery to the engine.

There is one additional just forward of the regulator on the left side frame above the coils. This one is a small boss welded to the frame and there is one ground wire attached. This is the single ground point for the entire electrical wiring harness. When you look at the service manuals and ground points are indicated, these ground points are where the ground wires are joined together in the wiring harness. The wire attached to this grounding boss is a single 16/18 GA, not substantial enough in my mind.

I have been into my headlight several times and there is no grounding point in the headlight area.

Locate the ground boss just forward of the regulator and clean that area.

For the driving lights, I would install a ground bus away from the battery - connect an 8 GA wire from the battery negative terminal to the ground bus and connect all new non-OEM ground wires to it. Allows for expansion later on. There is room under the seat to mount a new ground bus.
Attachment:
IMG_20160102_133710398.jpg
Attachment:
New Ground Bar.jpg


Another possibility is that you are exceeding the capacity of the alternator. The alternator provides full 350 watts at approximately 5000 RPM. At max power you have approximately 25 amps to play with. At 3000 RPM you have a bit less say 300 watts at 20 amps (WAG), and so on.

The voltage is indicative of a good charging system, but it does not tell you what the system current requirements are. In this regard, you could be needing say 23 amps, but the charging system is only putting out 20 amps, and the voltage will drop accordingly.

Even with battery power supplementing the electrical system, the voltage will still be low.

Just a few more thoughts.
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Share Post: Share on FacebookShare on TwitterShare on TumblrShare on Google+Share on MySpace  Post Number:#90  Unread postPosted: December 17th, 2017, 8:11 am

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hi,
i don't think it's an exciding problem when the voltage drop occurs just by starting the oem running lights. there are 2x 5 watts in the rear, 1x 5 watts in the front, the instrument lights and the voltmeter. let's say max. 20 watts plus the voltage the engine needs to run. the voltage drops also by turn-light, braking and turning on accessory lights.
i have cleaned both earth wires. the one near the regulator and the one from the battery at the frame. they weren't really bad but now they are clean.
where is the next connection from the earth wire near the regulator? i would like to clean this too.
after this i'll check the fuse box and unwire my accessories to be sure if they are involved or not.

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