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 Post subject: Oldwing starts no more
Share Post: Share on FacebookShare on TwitterShare on TumblrShare on Google+Share on MySpace  Post Number:#1  Unread postPosted: October 27th, 2017, 7:35 am

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Location: Pierre de Bresse
Local time: December 13th, 2017, 11:40 pm
Country:  France (fr)
My Rides: 1986 GL 1200 Aspencade
1986 Yamaha FJ 1200
1991 Yamaha FJ 1200 ABS
I sold them again long time ago:
1986 Yamaha FZ 750 to 900 ccm
1987 Yamaha FZR 1000
1988 Yamaha Venture Royale 1300 with v-max intake
1987 GL 1200 sidecar EML
1993 HD Ultra Glide

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hi Oldwing-owners
first of all i 've to tell that i've read all the threads i founded about the solenoid starter + alternator + regulator just because my troubles began with no battery charge in my gl1200a from 86. the regulator was out of order. i changed it. still no charge. a bad contact at the starter solenoid, solved. i also changed the bone fuse like recomended and cleaned all contacts on the way up and down. charging is ok. finished to put plastics back and wanted to make a test ride. the bikes doesn't start. all instrument lamps ok. engine stop on ON. neutral ok. well, take plastics away and look further. the starter solenoid clicks when i test it out of the bike with a battery but not in the bike. all wires going to the solenoid work right. the red/green wire lights the test light attached to the wire and + of the batterie in neutral, this is ok. The yellow/red wire shows only 1.3mV pushing the start button. is it right or should i get more volts doing it (something like 12 volts)? i think the issue starts here but how to solve?
thank you for your help.
Joebarteam

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Share Post: Share on FacebookShare on TwitterShare on TumblrShare on Google+Share on MySpace  Post Number:#2  Unread postPosted: October 27th, 2017, 9:28 am

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Location: Camden , AR
Local time: December 13th, 2017, 5:40 pm
Country:  United States (us)
My Rides: 1986 GL1200 Aspencade

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If it was me and when I had the ignition switch in the on position and I had 12'volts across the solenoid, I would be in suspect of starter problems either having lost internal ground, short out or just plain dirty internally. The internal hot wire in the starter could also be twisted off if the external connection was not backed up with wrench when conmecting to power
Cable. If I didn't have 12 volts across solenoid I'd be looking at ignition switch and or start button.

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Share Post: Share on FacebookShare on TwitterShare on TumblrShare on Google+Share on MySpace  Post Number:#3  Unread postPosted: October 27th, 2017, 12:05 pm

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Location: Pierre de Bresse
Local time: December 13th, 2017, 11:40 pm
Country:  France (fr)
My Rides: 1986 GL 1200 Aspencade
1986 Yamaha FJ 1200
1991 Yamaha FJ 1200 ABS
I sold them again long time ago:
1986 Yamaha FZ 750 to 900 ccm
1987 Yamaha FZR 1000
1988 Yamaha Venture Royale 1300 with v-max intake
1987 GL 1200 sidecar EML
1993 HD Ultra Glide

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backlander wrote:
If I didn't have 12 volts across solenoid I'd be looking at ignition switch and or start button.


as i don't have 12 volts i'll proceed the way you would if you didn't have'em. thanks a lot. i supossed this but i also expected to read something in a other way that also could be important or helpfull, something like well knowned hidden fuses or connections that are not in the electrical schemas. greez. joebarteam


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Share Post: Share on FacebookShare on TwitterShare on TumblrShare on Google+Share on MySpace  Post Number:#4  Unread postPosted: October 27th, 2017, 7:04 pm

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Location: Camden , AR
Local time: December 13th, 2017, 5:40 pm
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My Rides: 1986 GL1200 Aspencade

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Begin with the starter button on the right hand controls. It has to lock in the solenoid to send 12 volts momentarily to the starter to turn the engine over. The only safety switches I know of on the 1200's is the neutral safety switch and the clutch safety switch, there is also a clutch switch diode which rarely goes bad.

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Share Post: Share on FacebookShare on TwitterShare on TumblrShare on Google+Share on MySpace  Post Number:#5  Unread postPosted: October 28th, 2017, 6:40 am

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Location: Victoria, BC,
Local time: December 13th, 2017, 2:40 pm
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My Rides: 1985 GL1200 LTD
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The starter solenoid has 4 wires on it.

Red to ignition switch
Red/White - from regulator/rectifier for charging
Yellow/red - from starter button on right handlebar - 12 VDC supply to starter solenoid to energize the internal realy that allows power to flow to starter
Green/red wire - goes to ground through the clutch diode

You must have 12 VDC on the yellow/red wire when the starter button is pressed. Here is a wiring diagram for the starter solenoid:
Attachment:
Starter Solenoid Wiring.jpg
The yellow/red wire and green/red wire can go on either terminal. Check the voltage with a multimeter at the green/red wire. Press the starter button - should have battery voltage. If you do, then try to start the bike with the clutch pulled in. If the bike starts, you have a bad clutch diode. To find the clutch diode, follow the green/red wire.

This schematic is for my bike, but the wiring and premise is the same:
Attachment:
1985 GW Starter System 003.jpg
You will notice I have annotated the clutch diode and clutch switch at the handle bar. The system has to go to ground through one or the other.

The schematic also shows how the starter relay works.

Hope this helps a little more.
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Share Post: Share on FacebookShare on TwitterShare on TumblrShare on Google+Share on MySpace  Post Number:#6  Unread postPosted: October 29th, 2017, 8:45 am

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Joined: January 5th, 2014, 2:35 pm
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Total Posts: 173
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Location: Pierre de Bresse
Local time: December 13th, 2017, 11:40 pm
Country:  France (fr)
My Rides: 1986 GL 1200 Aspencade
1986 Yamaha FJ 1200
1991 Yamaha FJ 1200 ABS
I sold them again long time ago:
1986 Yamaha FZ 750 to 900 ccm
1987 Yamaha FZR 1000
1988 Yamaha Venture Royale 1300 with v-max intake
1987 GL 1200 sidecar EML
1993 HD Ultra Glide

Profile Personal album

News from the solenoid issue.
First of all thank you for your help.
Today I didn't manage to repair the problem but I know little more than before.
To make click the solenoid the two wires green/red and yellow/red must work properly, this is knowned. The green/red (gr-wire) wires does. All my tests with the gr-wire are ok. This side really works right. The problem comes for sure from the yellow/red wire (yr-wire). My tests showed this:
When I connect a wire from the +BAT to the yr-connection from the solenoid then the starter solenoid clicks and the starter turns. All other wires are connected. Even playing with the neutral and the clutch, the fonctionality is right.
That is for me the proove the issue is here. Further I tested the wire continuity from the yr-wire from the solenoid to the starter knob and to the engine stop/run knob. The connection has continuity by pressing the starter and engine on run. And now the volts! By pushing the starter knob I should get battery voltage at the yr-wire, I only get 0.1mVolt. This is quite nothing.
My questions: How to get the right voltage? Next steps to look at?
Thank you again for your help
Greez
Joebarteam

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Share Post: Share on FacebookShare on TwitterShare on TumblrShare on Google+Share on MySpace  Post Number:#7  Unread postPosted: October 30th, 2017, 1:38 am

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I struggle with electrical gremlins and am barely keeping up with your explanation, but...
I, one year, had both my Hondas give me problems with the starter button that ended up being gunky build up inside the starter button housing. I took them apart, thoroughly cleaned them, reassembled and they were back to "good as new". Easy, simple and cheap. Just thought I'd pass that along as a possibility. Good luck, Dave

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Share Post: Share on FacebookShare on TwitterShare on TumblrShare on Google+Share on MySpace  Post Number:#8  Unread postPosted: October 30th, 2017, 9:07 am

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Joined: January 5th, 2014, 2:35 pm
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Location: Pierre de Bresse
Local time: December 13th, 2017, 11:40 pm
Country:  France (fr)
My Rides: 1986 GL 1200 Aspencade
1986 Yamaha FJ 1200
1991 Yamaha FJ 1200 ABS
I sold them again long time ago:
1986 Yamaha FZ 750 to 900 ccm
1987 Yamaha FZR 1000
1988 Yamaha Venture Royale 1300 with v-max intake
1987 GL 1200 sidecar EML
1993 HD Ultra Glide

Profile Personal album

D-50Dave wrote:
I struggle with electrical gremlins and am barely keeping up with your explanation, but...
I, one year, had both my Hondas give me problems with the starter button that ended up being gunky build up inside the starter button housing. I took them apart, thoroughly cleaned them, reassembled and they were back to "good as new". Easy, simple and cheap. Just thought I'd pass that along as a possibility. Good luck, Dave
Hi Dave,
this was my last work yesterday :-)

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Share Post: Share on FacebookShare on TwitterShare on TumblrShare on Google+Share on MySpace  Post Number:#9  Unread postPosted: October 30th, 2017, 9:09 am

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Joined: January 5th, 2014, 2:35 pm
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Location: Pierre de Bresse
Local time: December 13th, 2017, 11:40 pm
Country:  France (fr)
My Rides: 1986 GL 1200 Aspencade
1986 Yamaha FJ 1200
1991 Yamaha FJ 1200 ABS
I sold them again long time ago:
1986 Yamaha FZ 750 to 900 ccm
1987 Yamaha FZR 1000
1988 Yamaha Venture Royale 1300 with v-max intake
1987 GL 1200 sidecar EML
1993 HD Ultra Glide

Profile Personal album

The issue is solved!
Thank you for all your helping thoughts and explanations.
The last gremlin was at the fuse box. The ignition fuse place had stoped working. Last time I cleaned the whole fuse box was in july this year and today again. That's why I didn't expect that the gremlin would be here. Contact cleaner spray after this wd-40 spray a new 10A fuse and... it starts like before! Beautiful sound to hear at this flat four.
To resume I have a nice work done. New regulator, new starter solenoid, the bone fuse is history. The old regulator and starter solenoid were bad. All contacts on the way up and down cleaned (please, wait another 31 years to call the gremlins again) and I have learned tons of things about electrics on my oldwing.
Joebarteam

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Share Post: Share on FacebookShare on TwitterShare on TumblrShare on Google+Share on MySpace  Post Number:#10  Unread postPosted: October 30th, 2017, 9:11 am

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Good deal ...it’s nice finding the needle in the hay stack

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Share Post: Share on FacebookShare on TwitterShare on TumblrShare on Google+Share on MySpace  Post Number:#11  Unread postPosted: October 30th, 2017, 12:55 pm

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Share Post: Share on FacebookShare on TwitterShare on TumblrShare on Google+Share on MySpace  Post Number:#12  Unread postPosted: November 1st, 2017, 6:00 am

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Location: Pierre de Bresse
Local time: December 13th, 2017, 11:40 pm
Country:  France (fr)
My Rides: 1986 GL 1200 Aspencade
1986 Yamaha FJ 1200
1991 Yamaha FJ 1200 ABS
I sold them again long time ago:
1986 Yamaha FZ 750 to 900 ccm
1987 Yamaha FZR 1000
1988 Yamaha Venture Royale 1300 with v-max intake
1987 GL 1200 sidecar EML
1993 HD Ultra Glide

Profile Personal album

hi again

the charging system of my oldwing challenges me.

you can read all what i've done and changed before i went for the test ride today. i also mounted a new voltmeter on the oldwing to see anytime how the volts do while riding. the voltmeter works good. i've tested against a multimeter getting the same results.

for the first 5 km i drove slowly keeping the engine regime below 2000u/min. the voltmeter showed beautiful 13.8 volts untill i let the engine go over 2400u/min. then volts droped to 12.2 down.

what the h*ll! i thought.

once the engine was warm i tried up 3, 4 and 5000u/min. allways 12.2 volts. then back under 2300u/min and again 13.8 volts.

i have over 50 volts at 3000u/min on each yellow wire going from the alternator to the regulator. at idle i have over 20 volts on each wire. i tested volts going to the battery in the garage at idle and at 3000u/min and i allways had 13.5 or more untill yesterday.
the starter solenoid and the regulator are new and working fine.
i've cleaned all contacts i had to touch up and down. i have changed bone main fuse for a 30A car fuse.

what i did not touch or looked at is the alternator. this has been changed 7000km before.
do you think that the contacts at the alternator could produce this gremlin? what else could also be?
i just can't understand why the charging system behaves differently in the garage and riding.
greez
joebarteam (<getting nervous)

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Share Post: Share on FacebookShare on TwitterShare on TumblrShare on Google+Share on MySpace  Post Number:#13  Unread postPosted: November 1st, 2017, 7:42 am

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Seems to me the "sense" wire to the regulator is somehow getting voltage added at higher rpm. I'm not sure what could cause that though.

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Share Post: Share on FacebookShare on TwitterShare on TumblrShare on Google+Share on MySpace  Post Number:#14  Unread postPosted: November 1st, 2017, 8:41 am

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I would try a temp jumper wire of the sense wire to battery + then Check voltages.

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Share Post: Share on FacebookShare on TwitterShare on TumblrShare on Google+Share on MySpace  Post Number:#15  Unread postPosted: November 1st, 2017, 11:05 am

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Joined: January 5th, 2014, 2:35 pm
Last visit: Today, 11:47 am

Total Posts: 173
Active Topics: 15

Total Images: 9
Location: Pierre de Bresse
Local time: December 13th, 2017, 11:40 pm
Country:  France (fr)
My Rides: 1986 GL 1200 Aspencade
1986 Yamaha FJ 1200
1991 Yamaha FJ 1200 ABS
I sold them again long time ago:
1986 Yamaha FZ 750 to 900 ccm
1987 Yamaha FZR 1000
1988 Yamaha Venture Royale 1300 with v-max intake
1987 GL 1200 sidecar EML
1993 HD Ultra Glide

Profile Personal album

Sense? Which wire is the sense wire?

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