Engine lock-up

An odd thing happened yesterday afternoon.
When I went to start up at the end of the work day, my engine wouldn't turn over. I heard the starter solenoid click and the starter motor kTHUNK but not turn over, so I thought my battery had died somehow. I got a jumpstart from my boss, but only got the same kTHUNK and no attempt to turn over. Thinking my starter motor was borked, we tried push-starting it. As usual, I put her in 2nd gear and popped the clutch only to come to an abrupt complete stop. So we tried 4th gear and got the same thing: a total abrupt stop as if the brakes locked the instant I let the clutch go.

After thinking a minute, I realized it wasn't the transmission or starter but the engine. I put her on the center stand, put her in 5th, sat down behind her and pulled REALLY hard on the back tire until it started to turn. After about a minute of turning the motor manually, she started right up with no hesitation.

There's only one thing I could think of that would cause this but I've never heard of anyone having this problem:
The spot where I parked was on the side of the road and the side-stand was on the rain gutter, about an inch below the level of the asphalt the tires were on, so she was leaning left farther than usual when I parked her. She was also about a half a quart low on oil (checked an hour after getting home). So I'm guessing the problem was that all the oil was on the left side of the engine and the right side pistons were refusing to slide until I'd put her on the center stand and manually circulated the oil a bit. As a precaution, I parked her on the center stand last night and today during work, and had no trouble starting either this morning or this afternoon.

Has anyone ever had (or even heard of) this happening?

I think it was hydro locked.
That's caused by liquid gas filling the cylinder which won't compress like fuel/air will.

This can cause bent piston rods, hopefully that didn't happen to you.

Always turn the fuel valve off when parked.
Next time it happens, pull out the spark plugs and crank it to clear out the raw gas.

Agreed. Hydrolocked.

Good idea to change oil and filter now since there might be gas in it.

Okay, that makes more sense than the "all the oil on one side" thing.
So basically the hard lean to the left caused a cylinder whose intake valve was open when I shut it off to fill up with gas, right?
I listened very carefully on the way home yesterday and to/from work today, there were no funny noises, banging, clicking, or anything. I replaced the left head gasket several months ago but the one I ordered for the right side never showed up and was eventually refunded. I've got two on the shelf right now so I was planning to check both of them when I do the operation to swap out the camshafts. I'll inspect the connecting rods then, but nothing seems to be wrong at the moment. I'll go ahead and change the oil tomorrow just in case (filter's already on the shelf).
Thanks!

[url=https://classicgoldwings.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=167357#p167357:2t4gs6lz said:

MrUnlucky » 9 minutes ago[/url]":2t4gs6lz]
Okay, that makes more sense than the "all the oil on one side" thing.
So basically the hard lean to the left caused a cylinder whose intake valve was open when I shut it off to fill up with gas, right?
I listened very carefully on the way home yesterday and to/from work today, there were no funny noises, banging, clicking, or anything. I replaced the left head gasket several months ago but the one I ordered for the right side never showed up and was eventually refunded. I've got two on the shelf right now so I was planning to check both of them when I do the operation to swap out the camshafts. I'll inspect the connecting rods then, but nothing seems to be wrong at the moment. I'll go ahead and change the oil tomorrow just in case (filter's already on the shelf).
Thanks!

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Probably but the valve wouldn't even have to be open when sitting because the intake can fill with gas then enter the cylinder as soon as it's turned over and the valve opens.

Which cams are planning to install? Members here have done a lot of upgrade mods. What more is in your plan? Always best to shut off the fuel before parking so the motor runs a bit before shut down.

Also, if it was leaning way far over, a little oil might have worked its way up past the left side rings, causing the hydrolock. Your constant pulling on the rear wheel in 5th gear forced the liquid back past the rings, or past a leaky valve, until the piston was free to turn. Gas or oil, it sounds like you dodged a bullet if it's running good now! You might not be as unlucky as you think! :yes:

Okay, oil definitely smells like gas, considerably more so than I expected. Fresh filter, fresh oil, fingers crossed.

slabghost":1yqagspb said:

Which cams are planning to install? Members here have done a lot of upgrade mods. What more is in your plan?

Click to expand...

I was advised in a previous thread to get the 77-79 GL1000 camshafts for a C5 ignition which will be ordered as soon as my income tax refund drops. Next project after that is a Poor Boy conversion to supplant the stator. Basically I've rewired the entire bike, harness and all, trying to get it to stop cooking Ignition Coils. Several sets of plug wires, several sets of plugs, igniters, ignition modules, etc, etc, etc. The only remaining parts are the stator and pulse generator, both of which require removing the engine and/or the swing arm. The C5, i believe, negates the pulse generator, and the Poor Boy will negate the stator. I do plan on replacing both of these eventually anyway (already on the shelf) when/if I ever need to pull the engine for clutch reasons or just decide one day to finally do it (second thing I'm buying with my refund is a motorcycle jack) because I like the idea of having a working back-up system in the form of the factory stator, pulse generator, coils, etc so I could just unplug one set of spark plug wires and plug in the other set in case anything ever goes wrong with the C5 (no such thing as being too prepared). Also planning to mount some large ammo cans as saddlebags and trunk, since I can only find the Hondaline/Samsonite saddlebags but not the locks that secure them to the luggage rack. This is kind of a back-burner project because I want to figure out how to make them removable/interchangable (work toolboxes) and lockable (bad neighborhood). For the time being I'm just stacking two on the trunk rack and tying them down with a ratchet-strap.

But back to the gas smell in the oil:
I've smelled this exact smell before. The small hoses on the side of the engine which used to be connected to my factory air cleaner (before the single-carb conversion). I initially correctly guessed that they were breathers and had little breather filters attached to the end of each short hose and zip-tied to the frame. Some time later, though, I noticed the one on the left would be seeping a fog that smelled vaguely of gasoline after warm-up. Stupidly, I didn't look up a diagram to see if I'd been right or wrong and decided that it must be Exhaust Gas Recirculation and made an adapter to tie the two hoses together and into the new air cleaner housing. Some time later, mostly on a whim, I tried removing this because I wondered if that fog was actually having a bad effect on my air/fuel mixture.

Now that I've finally looked the stupid thing up and confirmed that they are breather hoses, and observed that this exact smell is present in the oil I drained from the bike, I'm thinking the fog was coming gasoline in the oil evaporating in the crank-case, and that it was probably very bad for the carburetor. As the breather hose is still disconnected from the intake, I'll watch it closely tomorrow and see if it still does it with the fresh gas-free oil, then return both of them to being short hoses with breather filters on the end.

Sounds like a good plan.

Yep good plan. 75-77 cams have a little more duration than the 78-79 cams all will make for a boost in performance. C5 will eliminate all the old ignition components and be a huge upgrade. Might need to drop the float a bit in your carb or turn the fuel off a few minutes prior to shut down as it sounds like fuel has been draining into the motor on the sidestand for a while now.

slabghost":3tq2xqqe said:

Might need to drop the float a bit in your carb or turn the fuel off a few minutes prior to shut down as it sounds like fuel has been draining into the motor on the sidestand for a while now.

Click to expand...

I'm honestly a bit iffy on how to properly adjust the VW carb I'm using (EMPI 34 PICT-3 TYPE2). When I googled for instructions from VW, they say to run the mixture screw all the way in, then back it out 3 1/2 turns, adjust the bypass screw until the idle is 8-900, adjust the mixture screw to the fastest attainable idle, and then adjust the bypass screw to return the idle to 800.

Except turning the mixture screw didn't speed up or slow down my engine, it just changed the pitch. Same for the bypass screw. When I ran the bypass screw in a bit, I got popping in the exhaust when trying to accelerate uphill. When I backed it out, I got really weak power. Similar results from the mixture screw. I'm not even actually sure whether tightening the mixture screw increases of decreases the amount of fuel. I just kind of fiddled until she had a reasonable amount of power and no popping or poofing. There is a rather loud sound of air being sucked in, though, and i'm only getting around 18mpg but I don't know how much of that is the weak ignition.

I'll try adjusting the carb again after the C5 is on (just ordered!!) and see if it makes more of a difference when my ignition isn't all fucky. There's also the possibility that the fog coming from the breather gunked up the carb during the period that I thought it was EGR.

Speaking of that:
I watched on the way to and from work today for the fog, and it didn't show up until right when I got home. I'm at the top of a bit of a steep hill where I have to turn off a road, go uphill, turn right, and accelerate uphill again. The ride to work is only shallow uphills, and the fog didn't appear until the steep uphill but it did have that gasoline smell to it. When I stopped and leaned to the side-stand the fog showed up suddenly. Since the bike was running the whole time, this wouldn't be a case of fuel seeping into the cylinder and past the rings, but getting into the oil somewhere else. I was already planning to replace the fuel pump gasket when I do the right side cylinder head since it always leaves a drop or two of oil on my right boot and right exhaust, and should probably go ahead and order a fuel pump if there's a significant chance that gas is leaking into the oil at the pump.

I assume it's also possible for unburned fuel in the cylinders that aren't consistently firing to also work past the rings when the engine's under high torque and get into the oil. Google is showing me a couple of
RING SET, PISTON (STD).
Part Number: 13011-463-000
for around $50 and it says "required: 4" which I assume means that each $50 set is only for one piston.

Okay there is a thread here that discusses how to adjust the float on the pict3 carb. It might be in one of dkl's threads in the single conversion forum. It involves putting a thicker gasket on the needle valve to the float. It really seems to be your biggest issue here.


washer #4 here.

After a short run, what do the plugs look like?

[url=https://forum.classicgoldwings.com/viewtopic.php?p=167489#p167489:17g4mvay said:

dan filipi » February 4th, 2016, 8:42 pm[/url]":17g4mvay]
After a short run, what do the plugs look like?

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I'll go pull them in a bit. I've read that removing the spark plugs any time other than blistering-hot or overnight-cold runs a risk of wearing out the threads in the aluminum head so I've never pulled them any other time than overnight-cold. They've only been in for about two months, though, if that's what you mean by "short run".

On the subject of the fuel pump:
if I were to get a replacement to install along with the 77-79 GL1000 cams, should I get a 77-79 fuel pump or are they the same through 83?
Is there a CGW-approved electric fuel pump (to isolate the fuel delivery from the oil jacket entirely) or should I stick with the mechanically driven fuel pump?

Hah, if that was true about the plug threads, mine wouldn't have any threads left.
I suppose there could be a very slight loss of aluminum, but nothing to worry about.

By a short run I mean run for 10-15 minutes, basically a couple fan cycles.
Wet or black plugs then go after the carb for the low mileage.
If fuel pump leaking into oil then the oil should smell like gas.

I've pulled the plugs --well--- too many times playing with my carb experiments. The advice on pulling hot or cold is probably good. I do however use anti-seize on mine even though some recommend otherwise. It's just messier. Touch the threads and you're marked with black. The best advice is not over tightening them. I don't think I put 1/16 of a turn on them when tightening after the initial install.

Okay, here are the plugs.
You can see from the terminals the lack of activity in the #1 plug, which is the reason I'm switching to the C5.
I've eliminated the possibility of plugs, wires, coils, igniters, ignition module, and wiring harness via multiple replacements, and eliminated the possibility of carb sync problems via single-carb conversion so all that's left is the pulse generators.
The three that fire at full strength do look a bit blackened, I'd guess probably slightly on the rich side.

dan filipi":2pdj48kh said:

Hah, if that was true about the plug threads, mine wouldn't have any threads left.
I suppose there could be a very slight loss of aluminum, but nothing to worry about.

By a short run I mean run for 10-15 minutes, basically a couple fan cycles.
Wet or black plugs then go after the carb for the low mileage.
If fuel pump leaking into oil then the oil should smell like gas.

Click to expand...

I dunno, man. It makes me nervous tightening them down even when it's cold. I've had a lot of those Bullwinkle moments ("don't know mah own strength") in my electrical career. When I'm snugging them down I feel like I could easily strip them out.
I do, of course, have one replacement head already and the other on the way, just in case, but better to err on the side of caution.

The breather hose from the crank-case didn't smell like gas for the first day after the oil change, but now does again and the smell/fog reappeared while the bike was running so I'm leaning toward the fuel pump. I'll still run some carb cleaner through it and look into adjusting the float, especially if it's a common enough problem to have a thread already.

#1 plug looks to me to be the only plug that's burning close to the way it should be.
The others look way rich.
Have you done a compression check? What are the numbers?

#1 is likely the last getting the carb overflow. If the fuel pump is working it usually is sealed enough to keep fuel out of the oil. If it did leak it'd be from a weep hole at pump. Probably onto your right foot.