1985 GL1200 Limited ECU Replacement/Upgrade - Part 2

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Rednaxs60

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Have finalized the Speeduino pinout, attached.

As a refresher, amazed at how this aftermarket ECU unit replaces a larger OEM ECU. Some of the design of the early OEM ECU is not duplicated today. The brains of the operation is the MEGA 2560 with a 16 MHz clock. It's 4" by 2":
Control Module.JPG
The interface board between the bike CFI system and this board is 10 cms by 10 cms:
Interface Board.JPG
Coming together.
 

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joedrum

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Hmmm my vettes have old ECU UNITS TO DEAL WITH ...I've got one vette running very good And strong ..what a nightmare to get it all setup good running wise ..but the ECU RUNS MANY OTHER THINGS...it's like it is possessed with all the things it can do it's not suppose to do ..lol
 
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Rednaxs60

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Thanks for the comment Joe. I could keep the OLD, but this is much better. Keeping the same functionality. This ECU is strictly engine fuel and ignition, as is the OEM ECU. Have been learning a lot. Lots of info on the web and such that supports doing an ECU upgrade. Many people change their engine parameters such as increasing HP, punching the engine, different cam, lifters and such. With all this, and the fact that the OEM ECU was never intended to compensate for all these changes, people have trouble getting their new engine to operate quite right, close but no cigar. Enter the aftermarket ECU, inexpensive or expensive, the options are endless.

This small ECU I'm working on has an oil monitor function I believe, not sure. Can do sequential fuel injection. Need to install an O2 sensor.

Want to do an add on that monitors the CFI system parameters much like the OEM ECU does. Bluetooth functionality to connect to the tuning software without attaching a cable. Lots of options.

Learned a few programming languages back in the day; Fortran, Pascal, Basic, Cobol, HTML. Now I have to learn about the Arduino language, a sort of pseudo "C" language. Lots of info available.

Take a look at the Speeduino forum: Index page - Speeduino Plenty of projects to read about - especially older vehicles. Videos abound as well.
 
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Rednaxs60

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Progress - have installed the Speeduino on the bike using the OEM wiring harness:
Speeduino Connected.JPG
Powered up and no smoke. Have had some early issues. Fuel pump was not priming for the set time - pin selection and how the settings were burned to the MEGA. have this resolved.

No spark, setting issue. Will be removing spark plugs tomorrow and using a timing light I have to look at #1 TDC. ran the battery down today, LifePo4 - hope I haven't damaged it.
 
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Rednaxs60

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Had an epiphany regarding the no spark or tach. The Speeduino requires a digital signal for the cam/crank signals. The crank sensor is VR. The cam sensor is a Hall effect sensor with a VR output. The Speeduino interface board has 4 pins to select from. Two for Hall effect signals - digital square wave, and two for VR signals.

Had the cam/crank signals connected to the pins that bypass the VR conditioner board. Have changed these so that the VR signals go through the VR conditioner. Hopefully this will get better results, maybe a tach readout, and a "burp" on engine firing.

Have to do the vacuum hose mod that I gleaned from socrace's FI conversion.

Have to remember that the pin selection for any reassignment such as the pin selection for the fuel pump has to be the Arduino MEGA 2560 pin selection. This is because the Arduino MEGA 2560 is the CPU/brains of the ECU, the Speeduino board v0.4.4 is an interface board between the system and CPU (Arduino MEGA 2560).

Put the LifePo4 battery on charge. It has come up to a full state of charge. It has a built in BMS.
 
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Rednaxs60

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Once you get an understanding of the Speeduino, gets easier.

EarlyGWCollector - The '84 and '87 carb bikes are totally different from the '85/'86 fuel injected models. I'm woking on replacing a component of the computerized fuel injection (CFI) system, just happens to be the ECU. I am doing fuel and ignition together. A lot of people would only do one or the other, get the one being changed working correctly, then move on to another aspect, maybe not.

In your case fuel is what it is - carbs. The ignition aspect can be taken care of with a new CDI unit, enter the Speeduino or suitable alternative. Don't know how you would do it, take some research and reading. Definitely a possibility.

Had an epiphany in the early morning hours. I cannot adjust the timing with the existing OEM system. No way to change the ECU programming. I have had an issue with vacuum since I bought my '85 Limited Edition. The engine vacuum has never been above 10 in of HG at idle. The vacuum gauge indicates that this may be caused by vacuum leaks - the vacuum system is tight, use starting fluid to troubleshoot, or timing is off. Will be able to tweak the engine timing with the Speeduino.
 
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EarlyGWCollector - had a read of the Clymer manual regarding the 1200 ignition control module. The 1200 carb models electronically control spark and engine timing with the ignition control module. There is no way to adjust the timing.

As per Clymer manual, the timing is adjusted in relation to engine speed when using 1st through 3rd gear. When in 4th or 5th, the control module switches to an ignition pattern that is varied according to engine vacuum. I notice that there is a vacuum hose from a cylinder to the control module. Fuel is set by the carbs.

You had mentioned a speed limiter, not on the GW; however, from what I have read it may seem that there is one depending on the gear you are in.

I have read a lot of posts regarding the carb 1000/1100/1200/1500 Gas and most times it's about improved performance.

The 1500s do not need to have the carbs tweaked because Honda designed the 1500 engine system to emulate an FI system. There are 5 major engine systems. Tweaking one can affect the others. The 1000/1100/1200 GWs are different.

The ignition control module can probably be changed to an aftermarket ECU that can control ignition timing from idle to full throttle. From what I have read and looking at the schematic, you would need to install a MAP sensor, two 4 wire spark igniters (use the ones from an '85/'86 FI model), a new trigger wheel (use a 1500 trigger wheel 12-1 - fits on the crank shaft output between the timing belt crank pulleys). Would only need one crank trigger wheel sensor - the ones fitted will work well. Take the gear shift out of the equation. You could install the new unit using the existing wiring harness so that you can revert back to the OEM system if you choose. Unfortunately the carbs would have to stay initially. This could be a stepping stone to an EFI conversion.

EFI conversions are discussed and some come to fruition, but not many. These are a long term and most times, an expensive proposition.

Once a person becomes comfortable with the new ignition control module, the next step to a full EFI system is not a major step. Parts and pieces are the issue; however, in perusing the aftermarket EFI forums -specifically the Speeduino forum, it is mind boggling how many different manufacturer parts are cobbled together In some of the builds. The point is that if the parts being used are compatible with a specific aftermarket ECU, all is well. Auto wrecking yards are the shopping place for these type of projects. We are fortunate in that Mr Honda designed the GWs with an automotive flavour.

A person can change/test different carb jets, but without being able to adjust the timing to suit it will never be quite right. An example would be taking a modern day Camaro/Mustang at say some 350 HP and pumping up the volume to say 600 HP and expecting the OEM ECU to take it I stride and perform well - doesn't happen. Not designed for the new conditions.

I have mentioned that the proliferation of add-on/piggyback units are out there to address the symptoms for a perceived need. We love to play/tweak and I'm no different. My point is that a person can play/tweak as much as necessary, but the OEM designed its vehicles to do "X" and we want the "Y" - chasing the holy grail so to speak.

Just a few thoughts, and always, just MHO.
 
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Have been reading and perusing information regarding barometric compensation with the Speeduino ECU. Lots of queries regarding this issue, not a lot of resolution. Have found some info on the Speeduino forum, and I think an answer to one my thoughts/questions - active barometric readings.

Have read that Speeduino uses the MAP sensor read at start as the base for the barometric setting. This does not change after this, and does not compensate for altitude adjustment. A person mentioned on one of the threads that he would shut the engine off and restart to get a new barometric baseline when in the mountains. Ingenious, but addressing symptoms instead of the issue, that of dynamic active barometric readings.

In my quest for information on how to use an external MAP sensor specifically for barometric readings, I have scoured this forum. Using an external MAP sensor negates the use of the on board MAP sensor - hope there are no pin changes to be made regarding this.

Found a post by PSIG regarding using the on board MAP sensor and the pin change to be made: post 55543 of thread https://speeduino.com/forum/viewtopic.p ... sor#p55526.

The Arduino pin for the barometric input appears to be A5. To use an external MAP sensor specifically for active barometric readings, would have to connect the external MAP sensor to the Arduino A5 pin through a v0.4.4 board reassignment, similar to reassigning pins for the fuel pump.

It is suggested to use Arduino pin A15 as the input from the external MAP sensor. From this I expect that you would use Tuner Studio to connect this Arduino pin A15 pin to Arduino pin A5. Arduino pin A5 is the baro sensor input. I could also do a continuity check of the pins between the Arduino pin A5 and the v0.4.4 board IDC connector. Would still have to find the respective IDC pin for the Arduino pin A15.

Another option would be to use the on board MAP sensor for MAP, and use the external MAP v0.4.4 pin for the barometric reading. A pin reassignment might have to be done to get to the Arduino pin A5.

What happens on engine start is that the baro pressure at start is read by the Speeduino and this value is used for the duration of operation until engine shut down. The only way to alter this is to stop/start the engine to reset the value and carry on. Bit of an issue if you are travelling in the mountains. Active baro sensing is a better and compensates for weather, altitude and such.

Honda installed a MAP sensor on the ECU cct board, little black box in this photo, guess which one is the original ECU, would think that the CX500/CX650 turbos would have one installed as well:

I surmise that this sensor is for active baro measurements because, on my GW, there are two external MAP sensors for the ECU to get readings for the various maps used.

The Arduino 2560 has a dedicated pin A5 for the "input pin for Baro sensor". Going to put this aside for the moment, but it has tweaked my curiosity and I will continue to try and get a handle on the issue.

My O2 sensor from 14point7 came in, as did my new handheld OWON 2 CH oscilloscope/multimeter/signal generator unit. Nice kit, less than $100.00 CDN. More necessary components should be arriving today.

Have to find some real estate to install the O2 sensor. Looked yesterday, thinking the left side exhaust header just above the footage can be used.

Going with an external MAP sensor to start, a Denso 079800 - one of the MAP sensors in the drop down listing in Tuner Studio. Using the Suzuki IAP sensor presently on the GW, working well, but it is not aligning with the specs from Honda, neither does the OEM PB (MAP) sensors. Going to bench test for values, may be a better fit than the Suzuki sensor.
 
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Rednaxs60

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Trying to get a handle on what the spark igniters are doing. The settings in Tuner Studio (TS) are GOING HIGH or GOING LOW. This apparently refers to when the coil fires through the spark plugs. Have these two scope traces. First being the coil trace:

Spark Igniter Trace 4.JPG

You will notice that the coil charges when the ECU grounds the input signal, voltage drops for approximately 10 ms then the ECU removes the ground, the voltage spikes representing the initial discharge to bridge the spark plug gap, then it levels off and the spark is maintained for approximately 1.5 ms then peters off.

The ECU trace correlates with this:
Spark Ignter Wave Form 1.JPG
The spark igniter rests for some 40 ms then grounds the spark igniter. There is approximately a 10 ms dwell period to charge the coil then the ECU ground is removed. This is where in the above picture you see a significant voltage spike in the coil scope trace.

The new scope meter I have has two channels. Will try to get both traces on the same screen.

Received my Father's timing light in the mail from my brother:
Timing Light 2.jpg

Checked the timing and dwell. Used the right side timing belt pulley, easier than getting at the flywheel timing mark. Dwell came in at 15 deg. This correlates with the readings I have from the old tach/dwell meter I have. Took this reading from the coil:

Dwell From Coil.JPG
On to the O2 sensor placement, procrastinating because of the temp in the garage.

Probably looking at a lot of the minutiae that I really don't have to for this project, but it is interesting to find out the information. Found a web site that discussed using scope traces to determine if plugs are fouled. The way car engines are crammed into the engine compartment, good to know info.
 
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Did a test of JB Weld strength a while back for a different project. Used JB Weld to secure a nut to a piece of angle iron:
JB Weld Test.JPG
Let it sit inside for a few days then applied 30 ft/lbs of torque to it. As good as if welded. Thinking this will be good for the O2 sensor bung. Supposed to be good for temps up to 550 deg F. The only real estate available for install is where the pinkish dot is on the exhaust header:
Exhaust Header .JPG
Tight fit but it will do.
 
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Bit the bulllet and had the "bung" for the O2 sensor welded in place. Tight fit but works:
O2 Sensor Installed.JPG
Wiring harness for the O2 sensor in place:
O2 Sensor Harness Wiring.JPG
Wiring harness for the O2 sensor has 8 feet of wire. Will be doing a cut and splice to suit where I put the controller.
 
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Thanks Joe. It's a good learning curve as well.

Early on thought about a piggyback unit to control either fuel management or engine timing. When looking into this aspect, my philosophy of addressing the system as a whole and not just an individual item conflicted with doing this - just me and my personal preference. This post is just a few of my thoughts about this since the weather is not cooperating, snow on the ground and the garage is an icebox hindering progress of this project.

A piggyback unit would be to address fuel management or engine timing. Piggyback units, while good, cannot replace a tuneable ECU that allows you to tune the system as a whole. The cost of some ready made piggyback units can challenge the cost of a aftermarket ECU, but is almost always easier to install and get you back on the road.

I understand the piggyback issue, should/could be less expensive and a lot less work. Tried an aftermarket fuel management unit on my ex-V-Strom 1000 cc and it worked but not to my liking took it off and now it's collecting dust. Fellow up the street has been modifying a 2019 Mustang, lots of engine work and such. Have to ask him about the ECU as to whether he has modified or changed it. The OEM ECU was not designed to operate his engine with the amount of work he has done to it.

Mind you I was in this camp for a long time. The ECU is a "black" box and there is a lot of "voodoo" going on inside that is not shared with us mortals. You read the literature on the Speeduino project, Mega/Micro Squirt and other aftermarket units and it's not easy to comprehend, nor is information regarding component specs easy to find if at all. This is, I believe, a primary reason why a lot of people do not go down this road.

The Speeduino project is developing plug and play units for certain cars, as are other aftermarket ECU providers. I am reading about this and these businesses are data mining the various web sites as to which vehicles are being upgraded to aftermarket ECUs and developing drop in units for sale. Good marketing. The interesting issue with the Speeduino project is that it is still being developed, open source code modification is alive and well, whereas other aftermarket ECUs are fairly well established and open source development is probably non-existent, or not available.

Thinking about having the ECU on my 2014 Spyder upgraded with a new aftermarket "flash" to smooth out some of the wrinkles I notice with the operation of the engine. It's by a company in Ontario Canada that does this for the ATV and recreational community. Has satellite companies throughout the US as well. Its web site is: ECU Flash | Monster Fuel Injection. No affiliation, posting for info only.

Thought I'd update my thread. Hopefully get out into the garage and make some progress.

Cheers
 
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Need to do a comprehensive update; however, not in this post.

This post is to mention that I have been progressing the ECU project, and modifying the various settings such as timing and such.

Did the timing adjustment yesterday, in the ballpark. Plugs back in, Speeduino installed. After several attempts, noticed the timing not quite right, and the engine started. Let it run for 30 seconds or so, and when throttle let off, it stalled. Very excited about the install.
 
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Been testing the Speeduino ECU for the past couple of days. Have been starting and operating the engine, but it is using #1 and #2 cylinders only. Cylinders numbers 3 and 4 are not firing. When I increase the RPM these cylinder want to fire but don't catch.

Have noticed on Start that the engine may backfire - too much fuel, or a sound like a fireball going off. This indicates too much fuel getting in and once this happens, we all know what is needed - less fuel and dry plugs.

Have gone through the Speeduino setup in Tuner Studio and changed any setting I think affects the fuel load.

You are able to adjust the Priming Pulse Width - the amount of time that Speeduino fires the injectors to clear out air from the fuel line. This is now set to "0". Don't need any extra fuel before trying to start the engine.

There is Cranking Enrichment Curve that increases the fuel load by an additional percentage. This is in addition to any other settings that are active. Set this to 100% and from my reading, I understand this to mean no extra fuel added to the fuel load.

Setting the timing for #1 TDC was interesting. Started with a trigger angle in degrees of 180. No joy, changed to -180, again no joy. Went back to 180 degrees and went from there. Before setting the timing, had to determine the setting for the spark igniters. Had these initially set to GOING LOW. This did not work as the timing mark never moved no matter what trigger angle I use. Switched to GOING HIGH and the timing mark started to move.

With the timing trigger degree set at 180, moved it to north of 180, timing mark moved the wrong way. Went the other way to 145, timing mark moved but not quite enough. Final setting is 136. Will be doing a final when I get all four cylinders firing.

Injector opening times can be set. This timing is to compensate for the injector dead time, the time it takes to open the injector prior to fuel flowing.

Cranking dwell has been fixed to 10 degrees. This setting overrides all other dwell settings during cranking. Once the engine starts this parameter is no longer used.

Spark duration is another setting that can be adjusted.

Cranking/running dwell settings can be adjusted.

The various maps can be adjusted for better tuning. Have had to adjust the parameters in the ignition advance table.

There's a lot more that can be done. I will have to learn about the parameters in the various maps, and what happens as you adjust these.

Once I et the 4 cylinders on line, tuning is going to be fun. Lots of people with experience weigh in and provide assistance on the Speeduino forum.

I will be doing a complete review of this project at a later date, but at this time, concentrating on getting the new ECU incorporated into the CFI system.

Cheers
 
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There are some niceties with the Speeduino ECU for down the road.

Oil Pressure monitoring
Rad Fan control
Bluetooth connection for tuning and monitoring
Barometric real time monitoring - have to do some work to the interface board

There are some on the Speeduino forum doing an OBD add-on, may even be incorporated at this time, will be looking into this.

There are apps available that can monitor all the ECU parameters, One such App is RealDash.

There is a lot of flexibility/tunability regarding ECU/engine tuning that can be done with the new aftermarket ECU units. Depends on how fancy you would like to get.

Spoke to a neighbour about his Mustang project. 2019 and upgrading the engine and suspension. Asked about the OEM ECU. It would not operate the engine after he upgraded the cam. He had to pay to have the ECU unlocked, and have a new tune installed. It works quite well for not being on a dyne, but that is his next step. He is going to go to Vancouver to have the car on the dyne and the tune tweaked to suit.

Won't be doing this with the GW.

Thanks for reading.
 

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LTD/SEi had features (somewhat rudimentary) such as instant/trip/average fuel consumption using (I think) ON time for the injectors. Seems that these could not only be restored, but amplified given desire.
 
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LTD/SEi had features (somewhat rudimentary) such as instant/trip/average fuel consumption using (I think) ON time for the injectors. Seems that these could not only be restored, but amplified given desire.
So far I have not seen a lot of change in the dash readout. Will be doing a thorough look at the dash readout when I get the engine started and idling. Hopefully today. The dash tach works and I did nothing special for it to display. The tach seems to be one of the first issues people have.

When I get the engine idling and such, wiring neatly done, will put the shelter back on and connect. It will be interesting to see what the travel computer displays. Not concerned as much at this point as I was when I started this project. The travel computer functions are like the engine timing, fixed and cannot be modified. The Trip function can be used to countdown or count up for specific distances. Here's hoping everything functions.
 

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