1985 Limited Edition 2022 Work Period

Classic Goldwings

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Rednaxs60

Rednaxs60

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Went out to the garage this morning, hoping for the planets to have aligned and all is well in the universe. Not to be, no fast idle on start, dropped to around 880 RPM and picked up slowly.

Having mentioned the above, as the engine operating temp got to three bars, decided to start pulling plug wires. #2 cylinder stalled the engine as did all the other cylinders.

All the electronic components were cold, not warmed up yet. As the engine warmed up, and I did do a couple of small tweaks to the cylinder bank balance, started to get the same results as yesterday where #2 cylinder would not affect the engine operation too much. #1 cylinder was acting the same.

This sheds some light on the issue. Some component when it gets warm does not want to work as when it's cold.

Swapped out the spark igniter for #1 and #2 cylinders, no change. The other common component is the coil, but 3 sets of coils being faulty - me thinks no. The same with the ECUs, 3 ECUs doing the same and there is an issue - stranger things have happened.

#2 and #4 injectors have a common circuit. Ground and power are common with power going through the spark unit resistor. Have a resistance that is more than what the manual specifies - consideration. Not up on resistors, can a resistor fail from heat, work when cold? The greater resistance, less amps flow and could impact on the operation of the injectors. An inexpensive mod to do, can't hurt.

Trying to understand what is happening.
 

pidjones

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Went out to the garage this morning, hoping for the planets to have aligned and all is well in the universe. Not to be, no fast idle on start, dropped to around 880 RPM and picked up slowly.

Having mentioned the above, as the engine operating temp got to three bars, decided to start pulling plug wires. #2 cylinder stalled the engine as did all the other cylinders.

All the electronic components were cold, not warmed up yet. As the engine warmed up, and I did do a couple of small tweaks to the cylinder bank balance, started to get the same results as yesterday where #2 cylinder would not affect the engine operation too much. #1 cylinder was acting the same.

This sheds some light on the issue. Some component when it gets warm does not want to work as when it's cold.

Swapped out the spark igniter for #1 and #2 cylinders, no change. The other common component is the coil, but 3 sets of coils being faulty - me thinks no. The same with the ECUs, 3 ECUs doing the same and there is an issue - stranger things have happened.

#2 and #4 injectors have a common circuit. Ground and power are common with power going through the spark unit resistor. Have a resistance that is more than what the manual specifies - consideration. Not up on resistors, can a resistor fail from heat, work when cold? The greater resistance, less amps flow and could impact on the operation of the injectors. An inexpensive mod to do, can't hurt.

Trying to understand what is happening.
Yes, resistance can and usually does change with temperature. With good resistors however not very much (within 5%).
 
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Rednaxs60

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Had a chat with a local electronic place. After mentioning what was happening, his take is the resistors are good, probably at that resistance from the factory. Not letting these drop off the radar, but on hold.

Forgot to mention that there was a small glitch when I changed out the spark igniter. Swapped the spark igniter, no power to the CFI system. Checked what I had done but nothing. Key was shaken as well. After about 5 minutes or so, didn't actually time it, power came back on and engine starts.

The CFI system is powered all the time, checked the fuse, was good. Power flows through relay 4 to relay 5.

Found a forum thread that mentions this issue. New relays were the order of the day. Thinking these relays are weak, trip and reset. Can't hurt.

Going to do a leak down test as well. Done everything else.
 
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Rednaxs60

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Another good day. Had breakfast with a long time friend and fellow Navy Jack. Good conversation and picked his brain regarding the issue with my Gold Wing.

Explained the issue and went through my troubleshooting regime, then mentioned the relays. He mentioned without me saying, that there are probably two relays, one controlling the other. I agreed to investigate this further.

I had bought some new relays for my-ex 1500 a while back and kept a few. Couldn't find them so I made up a couple of pigtails to use some auto relays. Made a difference. Started with relay 4 that provides power to relay 5 for the CFI system. Let the engine cool down so no temp bars were showing, started the engine, it idled at approximately 1000 RPM then the RPMs increased instead of going south. Second cool down start, RPM went north instead of south. Not throwing the towel in just yet, but the results are promising. Tomorrow morning after a night to cool down will be more definitive.

Started cleaning up and found the relays I knew I had, this is after ordering 5 inexpensive 12VDC 40 amp relays from Amazon. Always the way.

The relays I have put in are from Gold Wing Docs, the GL1500 G8MS-H30 replacement relay. There are two long tabs for securing these in the GL1500 fuse box, but these snap off easily and are a direct fit for the '85 Limited Edition and '86 SE-i relays. Hard to find a 20 amp relay to fit.

This is the Goldwing Docs thread: Goldwing GL1500 G8MS-H30 Relay • goldwingdocs.com
 
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Rednaxs60

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Hopefully have it back together by the weekend. Lots going on that interferes with my motorcycling projects and riding. No rain in the forecast, driest year yet since stats have been recorded.
 
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Rednaxs60

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This thread has grown more than I thought it would. Reminds me of the soap "Days of our Lives", or as I like to say "As the Stomach Turns".

Not easy finding/correcting a small issue. Finding an issue when everything is apparently good, like taking your car into a dealership, the annoying issue never happens when it's in the shop.

Have had a lot of good thoughts mentioned that have added to being able to troubleshoot. I find that a fresh/different mindset can be very helpful.

Time to try the 1200 after a nights rest.
 

julimike54

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Have you read this article?


There is a section about poor idle, don't really know if applicable, but trying to help....
 
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Rednaxs60

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Will look at the article. Understand ballast resistors. Early model Dodge/Chrysler cars used these. The ‘85/‘86 FI Gold Wings do not have these. Will have to check the other models. Don’t think the CDI ignition systems use them. Does your 1200 have a ballast resistor.

I’m thinking that the words age, time, weak, heat come into play. We want factory performance from a 37 year old motorcycle. Wires being bent continuously because of small spaces. Connector pins vibrating in connectors, ever so slight but can still be something to consider.

Starting to secure everything. Coil wires are a bit longer so there’s no kinks at the coil connection. Looking at some of the connectors and how the wires are bent and such. Going to need a bit more wire of different colours to match.

Love a good project.
 
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Rednaxs60

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Have you read this article?


There is a section about poor idle, don't really know if applicable, but trying to help....
Read the article - good info. Haven't figured out the starting verse operating use of the ballast resistor, can't find anything on the schematic. Interesting thoughts on the spark plug wear.
 

julimike54

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No I haven't seen them on mine, but I hadn't torn into mine in that manner. The schematics don't call one out, could be part of the black box I guess?

Was mainly thinking along the lines of your rough idle situation and the varying of voltage issue regarding a rough idle. Like you've stated old parts and variations......
 
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Rednaxs60

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Thanks for the reply. Didn't think yours would have one. Found a YouTube video explaining the start up of an older vehicle with a ballast resistor and how the power flows at start. Got it now.
 
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Rednaxs60

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Have a charging issue. When cold the alternator does 14.2 VDC, as it heats up the voltage drops and won't go above 13.5 VDC. Took into the electrical shop, it thinks all is well - me not so much. Will check again in the morning to determine if the issue can be replicated. Engine works well when the battery and alternator are percolating.

We have a new counter depth fridge, delivered today. It's the last pice of the kitchen upgrade. While I waited for the delivery, started a small project I've been wanting to get at, organize the small parts bins - washers, SAE/metric nuts bolts, fuses, washers and such. Have done some labeling:
Parts Bins Labeled.JPG
Have a few more to do. Be organized and no motorcycle project(s) to bugger up the organized bins.
 
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Rednaxs60

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Taking a break from my obstinate '85 1200. It is not cooperating. Labeled some additional tool cases. Cases are great but seem to look the same after a while. Double sided tape, 1/8" ABS sheet, address labels:
Parts Bin Labeling 2.JPG
 

mcgovern61

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I am tired just trying to keep up with the reading! All of this diagnostic chasing makes me really appreciate a good old fashioned carb setup with a points and condensor distributer. Real easy to narrow down any ignition or carb fault with the old systems. That being said, if you are seeing differences between cold operation and a warmed up engine, that is most likely electrical. One of the big advantages to FI systems is that they should run the same whether cold temps outside or hot temps outside. Since FI has been used, turn the key and start right up. The ECU adjusts the systems as needed. That is part of the reason cars no longer have a "warm up period" in their manuals anymore.

I know this might seem silly, but have you tried a different wire on the #2 spark plug? We had 2 Ford Taurus's in the past. One had the 3.0 liter Vulcan engine that never had any trouble and the other had the 3.2 liter 24 valve engine. The 3.0 had 12 valves. The 3.2 was real powerful and felt (seat of the pants) like a rocket! Until........it was cold out. Then the 3.2 would develop a small stumble at idle (minor misfire). Not much. Ran smooth at speed, but would stumble ever so slightly at idle. Every single time it was diagnosed, it would be a failed plug wire on the back set of the cylinders. On the transversely mounted engine, the 3.2 was really tight against the fire wall. It was also close to the heat shield on the exhaust. A Ford technician told me that this was a very common problem on the 3.2 engine.

My point? The wires always looked good, produced spark when when checked, would make the plug spark when grounded on the engine, but would still misfire. Visual checks of spark are not enough with electronic systems. Something in the plug wire construction would cause them to fail and misfire. Might not be your issue, but sure is a cheap check!
 
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Rednaxs60

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Thanks Gerry. It's a mystery that needs to be solved. Agree it's probably electrical, not the FI system. Have new wires installed so these should be good, but no guarantees. Using plug caps that are old, but installed new caps in 2016. Caps should be good as well. Interesting in that I was balancing the cylinder banks for some 3/4 days - a little at time and no issues. Then a road test and all hell breaks loose. Good thing I'm a patient man and live in Canada, or this bike would be a candidate for the shotgun test, or a nice boat anchor.

Changed out relays 4/5. Had done this a few years back as well. Mentioned above that the bike started, let warm up, shut down, then would not start. No power to the FI system. After a few minutes, power back and engine started. Checked power to relay 4 - good. Should check power in from ignition key.

This circuit has the power going through the side stand safety relay then to relay 4, fuel pump shut-off sensor and coils - going to disconnect the side stand safety switch for a while, my addition so take it out of the equation. Checked the power to the coils on this circuit, 10.3 VDC; however, did put in a dedicated 12 VDC wire to the coils, taking the coils off the circuit.

All sorts of gremlins.

Have another issue with the charging system. When cold, starts, the RPM drops a bit, then increases to a fast idle. When warm, engine idles down to 1020 RPM. The alternator voltage creeps up to 14.2/14.3 VDC, it's the creeping up that bothers me, should be 14.2 VDC right away. When the engine warms up, shut down and restart, voltage 13.9 VDC, minimal charging but no change in load, should be at 14.2 VDC right away.

Decided I need a spare alternator. The local alternator shop is building me one. When I get it, will swap out alternators to try and determine what is happening.

Checked the diode pack in the alternator. Continuity one way only. Should be good. Brushes seem to be good. Regulator - ??. Regulator not as inexpensive as I thought.

Nice wiring on the boat, ABYC compliant no doubt, and pretty.
 

mcgovern61

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Voltage regulation for the alternator is controlled by the VR. The alternator should put out the same voltage no matter what. It is a matter of the voltage required by the VR based on the battery condition. I have zero experience with the 1200. But I do know that voltage will vary based on battery condition, not load on the system. The load on the system is measured by the battery output and the alternator carries the load plus battery charge (amps). Each time you start, there should be difference in the battery voltage based on the output and engine/air temp. Warm engine requires less starting amps than a cold engine. I always measure voltage directly at the battery to know what the system is doing.
 
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Rednaxs60

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Agree - on start, after which the battery is topped up to a 100% state of charge, and becomes a passenger so to speak until called back into service - trickle charge as the battery is never at 100%. The alternator now feeds the electrical system, and uses the reference voltage of approximately 14.2 VDC to monitor and maintain the electrical system.

Battery has three functions. Provide power to start the engine, provide a voltage sink for electrical system spikes and provide supplemental power when the alternator cannot keep up with the load, or in the case of a three part alternator system - rotor/stator/regulator-rectifier, when the stator output is not sufficient to provide sufficient electrical power to operate the motorcycles electrical requirement. An automotive alternator doesn't have the same limitations.

The '85/'86 FI model 1200 wiring is different than the carb models, and the stator output for the FI models is ~500 watts instead of ~350 watts for the carb models.

Regarding the carb models, the power output from the alternator system goes to starter solenoid to charge the battery, and from the starter solenoid out to the electrical system and ignition switch.

Honda changed the wiring for the FI models in that the output from the alternator system goes to the electrical system and ignition switch before it goes to the starter solenoid to charge the battery.

The FI models also have a capacitor in the wiring from the alternator system. Going to check this and replace it. Have read that these fail over time and last only some 20 years or so, the bike is now going on 37 years.

I've attached the power distribution schematics for the '85 carb and FI models. Take note of the wiring from the RR to the electrical system/starter solenoid.

Having mentioned this, the electrical system voltage should always be at the reference voltage regardless of load. The load varies and if significant enough, the electrical system voltage should fall, but the alternator would compensate for this and pump more amps into the electrical system, and the electrical system voltage should come back to ~14.2 VDC.

If the battery is failing, I would expect the alternator output to be in excess of 14.2 VDC - this has happened to me. Batteries that are on the way out will draw a lot of current causing the alternator output to register higher than 14.2 VDC, not lower.

The issue at this point is that the alternator output with a fully charged battery should be 14.2 VDC almost immediately. Shut the engine off, restart and the voltage stays 13.9/13.6 VDC or lower with the same load.

There is the power issue. Start the engine, let operate until warmed up, shut engine down, go to restart and no power too the CFI system. With the AGM battery installed - think it's on the way out, disconnected positive terminal, reconnect, and power to CFI system. This was repeatable. Changed to LifePo4 battery, engine starts, turn engine off, key back on CFI system has power. Tried a few times, worked.

Need the new alternator to do some additional troubleshooting, and rule it out as a cause.

Now that I am completely baffled, and muddied the waters, or as my brother keeps telling me, it's going to be something simple/minor that I will end up kicking myself for it. Going to think about it for a few days, and take on another home project. Have to trim out the windows to get ready for new blinds. Going to use door casing, and install crown molding at the top. Be a welcome break.
 

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Rednaxs60

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I have not been lax and have done some more tests to determine what is happening.

Scoured the schematic and relay 5 is grounded through the fuel pump shut off relay. Was using the one from the 1200 carcass, but have changed it out for the original. Will see how this works. These are not available under the '85 Limited Edition P/N, but is available from a few other sources such as a 2000 Honda CBR 1100 - P/N 35160-MBG-542, and for a Honda 2009 GL1800 35160-MCA-542. Wiring colours may differ as may the connectors, but the relay should work the same.

Still perusing the Honda parts lists for a suitable OEM TPS. Haven't found one yet.

Some of the newer Honda FI motorcycles have a different fuel pressure regulator that may be an alternate for the one fitted on the '85/'86 FI models. Thinking that a fuel pressure of 40 PSI would be more beneficial to the operation of the CFI system and engine overall because the injectors are cleaned, refurbished and flow tested at approximately 40 PSI. The Honda supplement only requires a dynamic fuel pressure of approximately 28 to 34 PSI. In essence the CFI injectors are derated.

Getting to the bottom of the charging issue. The lithium-ion battery, especially the LifePo4, is quite different from the AGM battery. The AGM battery has 6 cells rated at approximately 2.1 VDC each whereas the lithium battery has 4 cells rated at approximately 3.3 VDC. The LifePo4 battery is considered fully charged at 13.2 VDC.

I mentioned in a previous post that I was seeing a low voltage on the battery that increased steadily to the alternator reference voltage of approximately 14.2 VDC. This was confusing at first, and with further investigation checked the alternator output at source - 14.2 VDC. Voltage at starter solenoid - 14.2 VDC, Voltage across battery, starting at approximately 13.6 VDC rising gradually to 14.2 VDC because of internal circuitry.

This indicated that the electrical system had the power required for normal operation.

Way forward, lots of thinking to do. Going to put together a new spark unit resistor pack - the 3 ohm 50W resistors came in. Don't expect adifference but can't hurt to put this together and try.

Picked up two 0.47 uF capacitors to install in place of the original from the factory. Did some research, these capacitors do degrade over time and are used in the system as a noise suppressor.

I also found videos where capacitors are used as start/run capacitors and have demonstrated that this larger capacitor can operate the motorcycle engine with the battery disconnected. Don't think that this could be done with the Gold Wing, but it was interesting.

Cheers
 
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Rednaxs60

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Been tweaking the 1200 system(s). Picked up a spare alternator just in case. Think I mentioned that I replaced the fuel pump shut-off relay with the original, things are working pretty good. have found an alternative from a 2000 CBR1100 P/N 35160-MBG-023. May have to change the connector, but it will work - need the wiring schematic to do a comparison. Still perusing the parts fiche of the various motorcycles for a suitable TPS alternative.

Perusing the web for info on the Throttle position stop screw used to calibrate the TPS. Read quite a few posts on various forums, and the TPS calibration is generally the same - somewhere between 0.47 and 0.49 VDC. This is car and motorcycle. Another interesting spec is that these values are mentioned in conjunction with the TPS voltage after calibration and the engine idle set. This voltage is 0.5 VDC. It was mentioned that if above this value, TPS could be faulty, if 0.5 VDC or less - TPS is good.

Decided to check the TPS voltage this morning. It was at 0.57 VDC. Since I know the TPS is good, and I was a bad person years ago and calibrated the TPS wrong :cry:, I adjusted the TPS stop screw to compensate for the voltage being over 0.5 VDC. Recalibrated the TPS, set the idle and the voltage is approximately 0.46 VDC. Will check again in the morning to make sure I have the stop screw where it should be, if not a small tweak will be done.

This TPS value is important because the ECU uses this value as the starting point when starting the engine. Would think that timing, injector timing and everything else could be thrown out of sync if the ECU signals are not correct.

Replacing the in-line capacitor. Made a small capacitor cover from a sheet of 1/16" ABS, glued together with JB Weld. Soldered wires onto the capacitor, it is not polarity dependent. Using silicone sealant to protect the capacitor when installed. Silcone sealant has a max temp of 350 degree F. Not pretty but effective - a little black box:

IMG_2165.JPG
 

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