Skreeching noise on The Turd....

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AApple

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Story o me life.....went out to fire The Turd up for it's weekly exercise, and it started skreeching like a banshee!! At first, I thunk it was one of the timing belt tensioners, but then I realized it was the friggin starter clutch sprag....dammit! It goes away if I pop the starter button quickly(while running), but then it comes back here and there. I poured a bit of Seafoam in the oil to see if it would help, but it might take a while for it to do any good, if at all. I WILL NOT pull the engine back out to fix this thing....I'll drop the price and sell it as is....come and get it(and ride it home), $900, first come first served! :poop:

I had video of the thing skreeching, but...the vid disappeared before I got to upload it!! Guess I hit the wrong button on the fone or sumptin....:mad::mad::mad:
 

Rednaxs60

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Sidecar Bob and Liam on the Naked GoldWings forum mention that the Gold Wing does not have a sprag clutch, but has a "trapped roller clutch". Did not know this until I read their posts, but have to concur with them. The forum page is: NGWClub®, Inc. - Login Look at posts 2842/2845. An interesting development. Post 2845 has a short video on how this "trapped roller clutch" works. So no more sprag clutch talk :cool::cool:(y)(y)! Learn something new every day.
 

Rednaxs60

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Thought it was a good bit of info, my bad.

The noise in the Turd, don't believe it's the starter clutch. A roller with a pen type spring pushing on it shouldn't make a squealing noise. Have to be a lot of upwards and sideways pressure to make the roller squeal, the installed pen like spring is not capable of doing this, would have to be a lot of crud in that area.

Had this issue with my 1200 engine. Squeal on start up, then go away, come back now and then. Replaced the starter clutch parts in 2016 when I did the clutch and external alt mod (removed the internal stator), squealing never went away. Did this for 4 years. Took the engine apart and found two bearings seized, alternator and final drive shafts:

Alt Shaft Bearing.jpgFinal Drive Bearing.jpg
Don't know how the water got in the engine to do this, I was riding this bike continuously, quite a few long trips - ask Dan, and it was kept in the garage. Guesstimating that once the engine was running, enough oil got into the bearing to lubricate the shafts, squealing goes away. Replaced these bearings, no more squealing. Thinking that the bike was not kept out of the elements by the PO.

Possible that a bearing is not rotating on start, but rotates after a fashion, squealing goes away.

Just a thought on what the issue could be.
 

AApple

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Roller clutches by design are always in contact with the driven race. As such, they can( and often do) make a screeching noise when free-wheeling....you just normally don't hear it. I believe the noise I have is most likely due to oil draining off of the starter clutch while sitting for long periods, thus being dry on startup. I'll find out tomorrow when I fire it up and run it thru the gears...which I did not do last weekend...
 

Rednaxs60

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I went back and looked at the videos you have posted regarding first starts. The one from April this year is interesting in that there is high pitched sound from the engine on start, dies down to a dull roar but is still there, more prominent on the left side. You started on the left side and walked to the right. I can hear the high pitch sound reduce as you get to the rear of the bike, then increase as you move forward to the engine.

Just an observation.
 

AApple

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I had a vid of the noise it was making last week, but I apparently deleted instead of uploading!! Doh! The screech noise is NOT happening in the other vids...I would have said something then. Anywho...I fired it up today, and....no noise! Go figure. Let it run for aboot 30 minutes, and ran it thru all the gears several times. However...the start clutch doesn't engage every time now. I have to hit the start button a couple of times before it grabs...dadgummit...just another indication the durn thing is takin a doo-doo...
 

AApple

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Imma gunna try to upload vids from startup today. The noise stops when I pop the start button, then slowly comes back. The other vid I have is too large to upload...
 

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AApple

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Nope...the starter spins when I mash the button, but not once it starts. Here's the other vid that was too large to load here. Go to about 24 seconds in, then you can really hear the noise, and hear it stop when I press the start button. For some reason, the noise doesn't record well...but at 26 seconds you'll hear it plain as day. The starter clutch also don't catch every time anymore when trying to start. I have to bump it a couple of times before it grabs, and spins the engine...I know the sprag rollers are failing....
 

mcgovern61

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Now that I heard the sound, I realize you can hear it the entire time in that video except at the 24-26 second mark where it spins up faster and squeals like a dry bearing. Since the sound is there and steady up until the 24 second mark and the engine RPM does not change, it points to something spinning non-stop.
 

Rednaxs60

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Listened to your video, definitely a screeching noise. Not disagreeing, but engine noises can be from a variety of source(s), the least of which we think it is.

Dug out a picture of the starter clutch:

Starter - Sprague Clutch.jpg
Have seen pictures of this area with a bad case of crud build-up, but if starter clutch parts have been replaced, would expect the area to be cleaned.

The starter clutch pieces are a roller, starter clutch roller spring cap and starter clutch roller spring: Starter Clutch 2.jpg
The starter clutch roller spring goes in first, the starter spring cap fits over the spring, then the roller goes in against the starter clutch roller spring cap. The install order is shown in this pic:

Starter Clutch 1.jpg

The rollers roll against the alternator shaft "land". Red arrow points to the "land":Starter Clutch 3.jpg

I submit that the starter clutch roller spring is probably not as stiff as it should be and surmise that this could be part of the starter run-on issue until the starter clutch engages.

Replaced the three starter clutch parts in 2018 in my 1200 engine after some 33 years. No noticeable difference in the roller between old/new. Replaced because of the way it was starting, did main engine clutch and other work as well. New starter clutch parts and still have same issue of starter run-on until it catches.

There is a starter chain guide that is part of the alternator shaft install. If this is loose could be making the sound item #13 - unlikely but a thought. You do mention that once the engine is started, the noise stops when you press the start button then comes back, could be the starter chain against the guide - possibility:

Starter Clutch 4.jpg

Once the engine is started and the rollers set in place, shouldn't expect any roller movement. Doesn't take much oil to lubricate these parts.

Very interested in what the issue is. Noises are very hard to diagnose and quite annoying. Cheers
 

Rednaxs60

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I listened to the video and the screech comes and goes pretty quick, but that sound sure sounds like a very small dry bearing suddenly spinning up. Are you sure the starter is disenaging?

Now that I heard the sound, I realize you can hear it the entire time in that video except at the 24-26 second mark where it spins up faster and squeals like a dry bearing. Since the sound is there and steady up until the 24 second mark and the engine RPM does not change, it points to something spinning non-stop.
Don't think it would be the starter, sound would probably be more of a whirring than a squeal.

There are three bearings to consider. The alternator shaft forward support bearing, the alternator shaft end support bearing and the starter sprocket needle bearing. These three bearings can be inspected with the removal of the rear engine case cover.

The starter sprocket needle bearing could be a possible issue because you mention that the noise goes away when you hit the start button. Could be the rear alternator shaft bearing in the engine case as well - hit the start button and the loading of the alternator shaft can be changed just enough to stop the noise, but the noise returns once the starter button is no longer pressed.

Just a thought.
 
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