The Mayflower: AKA - I bought a non-running '82 GL1100

[saganaga]

The backstory can be found here, but the truncated version is that a neighor was selling a 1982 GL1100 for a low price. Not running, of course.

Went over on Saturday with cash in hand. Liked what I saw, and decided to take a gamble. A 1982 Standard, with plenty of accessories.

Long term goal is to convert it back to a standard (because they are beautiful), but keep the accessories as an option.

Short term goal is to get this on the highway.

So the summary of listed problems:

- Rear shock warning light is on.
- Motorcycle does not start, but runs briefly on starting fluid.
- Rear tire needs replacing.

Diagnosed problems (so far):

- Bike still doesn't start.
- One missing fuse, two incorrect fuses (fixed).
- Low coolant (fixed).
- Rear suspension loses air rapidly, there's the sound of air escaping from around the top left rear shock.
- Front suspension has no air. Aired it up to 18PSI. Dropped to 10 PSI overnight.
- Front left rotor is slick. Brake fluid? Or something else?
- Rear tire looks mostly good, but has a bald spot. Unbalanced? Or something else?
- Fuel lines need replacement.

I'm currently working on the carbs, which sat for what I think was two years with old gas. Got them out, and am tearing into them from the bowls to see the damage. So far, every float valve has been glued in place with varnish. Every jet has been stuck, and almost all are clogged. The bowls have some crud in the bottom (and tinged green). Working on carbs #1, #2, and #3, while keeping #4 as a reference. Gaskets do look good though. I think this was rebuilt probably around five years ago. The accelerator pump and the one air cutoff diaphragm I looked at are iffy.

None of the needle jets have come out by themselves. I put the bowls back on just in case one decides to work its way free.

Neither has the o-ring and washer for the pilot screws that the Honda Service Manual shows.

I think I'll be separating the carbs, disassembling them, and soaking each of them in some carb cleaner.

Questions so far:

1. Does the standard 1982 GL1100 have o-rings on the pilot jets? I'm not seeing any.
2. What carb soak do you prefer for nasty varnish? How long of a soak?

 

[mcgovern61]

I prefer using an Ultrasonic cleaner.

viewtopic.php?p=186975#p186975

I have used Chem Dip. I wouldn't leave parts in there for more than 1 hour. I do not think there is an O-ring on the idle jets (if I remember).

 

[saganaga]

The parts diagram is showing the pilot screw, a spring, then a washer and finally a small o-ring.

The replacement pilot screw includes all of that.

Now I see a Keihin VB48A and a VB48C was used in the GL1100s. According to the service manual, the VB48A was used in '80 and '81, and the VB48C was used in '82 and '83. Did the A use the washer/o-ring and the C did not? But wouldn't it have to seal for fuel and air regardless?

 

[desertrefugee]

I don't have a parts diagram available... I am at work.

But I agree with the Ultrasonic Cleaner suggestion above. Not only is soaking in solvent not good for soft compounds, it still doesn't get all the gunk out. An ultrasonic Cleaner does.

 

[saganaga]

Got the pilot screw o-rings out. They were glued in place with the varnish. Carefully took a pick and pried one edge away. Then I could get the custom removal tool (a bent paperclip) underneath it and pull it up and out. They are not reusable at this point. I've already ordered a replacement.

I also dug deeper.

Everything I see is consistent with a "let gas dry in a recently rebuilt set of carbs" situation (probably when it was rebuilt before sale to the previous owner). As such, I'm not going to bother replacing the gaskets. If it does leak, I'll rebuild it with fresh gaskets then, or if I find some grody o-rings when I tear the carb apart.

OTOH, the accelerator pump looks older. So does the one air cutoff valve I examined. Accelerator pump had to be peeled away from the carb body. For the price, I'm replacing it. I'll do the air cutoff valves at the same time. I am taking a gamble - this is a non running bike, and I'm dropping close to $80 into this (I ordered an air filter and oil filter at the same time).

I was hoping to not have to tear the carb completely apart, but I'll needed to do that anyways to replace the air cutoff valves. It also looks like the accelerator pump fuel supply to the other carbs runs under the air chamber, and there's mention of this passage using a tube to reduce the volume of gas needed to give more responsiveness to the accelerator pump.

Anyways, split the plenum. (If I'm screwing up terms, just let me know). Plenum seal gasket looks good. Thankfully - that thing is another $40. All the fuel channels look good. Separated each bank of carbs, and the tubes between them are not clogged. Still trying to clean the jets without bothering to buy an ultrasonic cleaner. For carb #3 (the one I am currently cleaning), one jet is pretty clean, the other is horribly clogged. Soaked it in mineral oil for an hour, didn't do anything. Spent more time at it and managed to clean it out. I used a really fine wire - not trying to clean it, just trying to penetrate it and create a channel for the mineral spirits to access. That seemed to work.

I may be shooting myself in the foot by not doing a complete rebuild, but my primary goal is to try to get this thing running and be able to diagnose any other potential problems before making a serious investment.

I did adjust the handlebars, and while playing with the front brake (which seemed less firm than I liked when I tested the bike - although it stopped it from rolling), I discovered I can get the front brake to touch the handlebar. That, combined with the fluid on the front left rotor makes me think I'm rebuilding the two front calipers in the near future (if one failed, then I don't trust the other). I'll plan on doing the front master cylinder and rear brake cylinder after testing the rest of the bike.

 

[desertrefugee]

Excellent narrative. Keep up the good work - and keep us apprised!

 

[saganaga]

All four accelerator nozzles are completely clogged. Got at least one nicely unclogged. Another may be partially unclogged.

Jets still look questionable. Especially the idle jet. I fear there's a fine line between trying to de-crud that jet and accidentally enlarging it or otherwise damaging it. Speaking of fears, I also fear that if the sitting gas did this to the carbs, what about the fuel pump? I suppose I should flush it somehow, or at least check the output.

Anyways, I'm going to the thrift store tomorrow and buying a larger cheap pot and a smaller cheap pot just so I can boil the carb bodies and jets, if needed. Got a few other things to try as well.

 

[saganaga]

To cross a few other things off the list, acetone and MEK did not unclog the accelerator nozzle. Even tried filling up the passageway and hitting it with a heat gun until it boiled.

Boiling one of the front carb bodies now. We'll see if that works. I hate to get to that point, since the rear two carburetors seem to have a few things that should be removed before boiling (one has the fuel nozzle, the other has a plastic piece) which I was trying to avoid, but what can you do?

On the plus side, front forks are holding air over the course of 24 hours, and the rear is also holding some air (loss of 10 - 15 PSI) over 24 hours. Which makes a test ride possible if I can get these carbs cleaned up.

 

[saganaga]

Update: Boiling was a success. Did a half hour in tap water with a bit of laundry detergent. Our tap water isn't notably hard, and isn't treated beyond what the city does. I'd suggest distilled water if your water does leave crusty crap.

Boiling the right front carb now. This is the last carb I'll do tonight.

Boiling isn't the end all or be all - there's still some stuff on the gasket surfaces. But MEK gets that off pretty easily.

I hope to boil the other two carbs and do most of the reassembly tomorrow. When I get the o-rings I need (maybe early this week) and the new fuel line, I hope to be able to bench sync the carbs and install them. I'll probably do hex bolts on the #1 and #3 vacuum chambers for easy removal in the future. (I know, the reason why hex bolts aren't preferred is that it is easier to over-torque them, but I'll be gentle.)

I hope to hear this fire up soon.

 

[bib]

saganaga » Sun May 19, 2019 5:53 pm[/url]":2ou7in6f]
To cross a few other things off the list, acetone and MEK did not unclog the accelerator nozzle. Even tried filling up the passageway and hitting it with a heat gun until it boiled.

Boiling one of the front carb bodies now. We'll see if that works. I hate to get to that point, since the rear two carburetors seem to have a few things that should be removed before boiling (one has the fuel nozzle, the other has a plastic piece) which I was trying to avoid, but what can you do?

On the plus side, front forks are holding air over the course of 24 hours, and the rear is also holding some air (loss of 10 - 15 PSI) over 24 hours. Which makes a test ride possible if I can get these carbs cleaned up.

The accelerator pump nozzles on mine were plugged also. The openings on them are tiny...I ended up using compressed air through a blowgun I found at work that someone had adapted a long tube to the end (a piece of metal brake tubing, I think). I blew them back into the carbs instead of trying to blow them out the nozzle end. When the bowls are full and you crank the throttle all the way fuel will shoot out about a foot from each nozzle. That fuel barb on carb #3 has o-rings and can be removed. If you don't have gauges to sync the carbs and don't want to spend a bunch of money I got a single vacuum gauge at Auto Zone for about $20. You will need a set of nipples for the intake tubes (Motion Pro 5mm I think) and will need a vacuum check valve...only a couple of dollars at an aquarium supply place. The gauge I got also works for pressure so I was able to check my fuel pump output pressure. I know that balancing the carbs with a single gauge is tedious...and not actually the right way to do it but it can be done. Our Wings run like shit when the carbs are badly out of sync.

 

[saganaga]

bib » Today, 4:38 pm[/url]":2e9seqiv]

saganaga » Sun May 19, 2019 5:53 pm[/url]":2e9seqiv]
To cross a few other things off the list, acetone and MEK did not unclog the accelerator nozzle. Even tried filling up the passageway and hitting it with a heat gun until it boiled.

Boiling one of the front carb bodies now. We'll see if that works. I hate to get to that point, since the rear two carburetors seem to have a few things that should be removed before boiling (one has the fuel nozzle, the other has a plastic piece) which I was trying to avoid, but what can you do?

On the plus side, front forks are holding air over the course of 24 hours, and the rear is also holding some air (loss of 10 - 15 PSI) over 24 hours. Which makes a test ride possible if I can get these carbs cleaned up.

The accelerator pump nozzles on mine were plugged also. The openings on them are tiny...I ended up using compressed air through a blowgun I found at work that someone had adapted a long tube to the end (a piece of metal brake tubing, I think). I blew them back into the carbs instead of trying to blow them out the nozzle end. When the bowls are full and you crank the throttle all the way fuel will shoot out about a foot from each nozzle. That fuel barb on carb #3 has o-rings and can be removed. If you don't have gauges to sync the carbs and don't want to spend a bunch of money I got a single vacuum gauge at Auto Zone for about $20. You will need a set of nipples for the intake tubes (Motion Pro 5mm I think) and will need a vacuum check valve...only a couple of dollars at an aquarium supply place. The gauge I got also works for pressure so I was able to check my fuel pump output pressure. I know that balancing the carbs with a single gauge is tedious...and not actually the right way to do it but it can be done. Our Wings run like shit when the carbs are badly out of sync.

I've been told you can use a four-into-one aquarium fitting to make it easier to use a single gauge. I have two of the Harbor Freight $15 specials vacuum gauges that I've used on my Honda twin. I am debating picking up two more - but do I really want to store four vacuum gauges that I may use only every few years?

I ended up unclogging my accelerator pump nozzle on carb #3 by using a tiny bit of wire, bent in a square u-shape, then pushing it in. Then I could blow it out.

Boiling the last carb as we speak. Rest are unclogged, and reassembled, but not attached to the plenum. Noticed a small air leak around the chokes - trying to figure out if there was something there, or if this is just normal wear. All the carbs are similar, so it may be just normal wear or by design. Maybe I'll throw an o-ring or nylon washer on it just in case before reassembly.

 

[joedrum]

Choke shafts leaking is common ...terrible set up there ...seems like your doing a great job ...can’t wait for the outcome ...

 

[saganaga]

Dang, about the choke shafts. Maybe a felt washer or something would help cut down on air flow.

Today I assembled the carbs. Put them on the ground and hooked them up to the CM400's tank. In about a minute, gas started pouring out of carb #4. Pulled out the bowl and removed the float needle assembly and recleaned it. That fixed it. Cleaned the other three float needle assemblies again as well. Spent about an hour installing the carburetors (dang, that's a job), then another hour installing everything else. Put in the new fuel line and filter and tested the pump - got gas flow, and the gas looked clean.

Installed the air filter and ran into a potential problem - does this look normal or did something separate/get installed incorrectly?

It was raining outside (still is), but I had to try starting the motorcycle in the garage. Fired right up. Smoky though - from around the engine as well. I am a little worried, but I have to wait for a non-rainy time and let it warm up fully. It may be due to sitting or just old gas leaks from the carb (it did look like something from around carb #3 was leaking). Otherwise sounds good.

 

[joedrum]

Probably just burning off stuff in the mufflers

 

[saganaga]

While warming up to do an oil change, got a leak after 10 minutes. From the same side as carb #4. Suspect the needle valve. I shut off the petcock and drained the oil anyways. Left the drain plug open to get the excess gas out of the engine. On the plus side, I'm getting 15V while the motorcycle is running, so the charging system appears to be good.

Lesson learned - just buy the new rebuild kit when the jets and valves are corroded.

Other lessons from the previous rebuild:

1. The carbs in this are a PITA to remove and install.
2. Hitting a thrift store for a few glass containers with lids is rather nice for whatever solvent you are using for cleaning. Cuts down on the smell. Also good to grab a a plastic bin or two for cheap for each carb.
3. Painter's tape is great for labeling things. I had on each parts bin something that looked like "#4 LR 3 1/8" - #4 carb, left rear location, 3 1/8th turns on the pilot screw.
4. Think I found this somewhere else on Youtube, but from a CGW forum member - heat gun is the way to remove each intake manifold.
5. #0000 steel wool does polish old jets, but the little pieces get everywhere and each part needs to be carefully cleaned.
6. A little tape over the intakes is a great way of sealing the engine as well.

 

[Two85s]

Installed the air filter and ran into a potential problem - does this look normal or did something separate/get installed incorrectly?

Those rubbers are still available from Honda (had to replace one on the 80)

 

[saganaga]

Two85s » Today, 3:42 pm[/url]":q7pj1zym]

Installed the air filter and ran into a potential problem - does this look normal or did something separate/get installed incorrectly?

Those rubbers are still available from Honda (had to replace one on the 80)

Recall what it ran, about? Everything I found online was out of stock, but there's a nice old-school Honda dealer in Minneapolis that is pretty good. Reminds me of stopping in to buy parts with my dad. I half expect them to pull out one of those manual credit card machines every time I pay.

 

[saganaga]

Carbs are out again. Waiting for parts. Front master cylinder rebuild kit came today. Didn't know if I needed it, but the price was low. Brake pads also came, but not the front brake cylinder rebuild kit. Of course! Carb rebuild kit will come next week.

Rebuilt the front master cylinder tonight. The old rubber was looking good, but the greyish brown brake fluid I'm finding and the crusty deposits makes me think a rebuild wasn't a bad idea. Reassembled it tonight and installed it. Going to fill the system up with brake fluid when I rebuild the calipers.

Here's a picture of the old brake fluid.

 

[pidjones]

You'll probably find that you need new pistons for the wheel cylinders.

 

[saganaga]

Both the caliper rebuild kit and carburetor rebuild kit came today.

Rebuilt the left front caliper, and the pistons didn't seem too bad. One small pit on each. Not wide enough to breach the seals.
That was the dirty caliper with oil soaked pads. Cleaned the pistons with some 600 grit and 1500 grit sandpaper (recommended in an online guide) and replaced all the rubber seals. If they leak, I'll remove them and replace them. One annoyance - the rebuild kit I bought had pins that are far too long. I don't think it would matter in practice, but it bothers me. Luckily the old pins are in pretty good shape - I'll just clean them up and reuse them.

I'm going to attempt to do the front right caliper tomorrow. Already pulled it, and it looks like I was due to a pad replacement anyways. It wasn't bad enough to damage the rotor, but it was enough wear that it needed to be replaced.

Other than pulling the floats from the calipers and tossing them in a can of gasoline to make sure they are still floating tomorrow, I haven't done anything for the carb rebuild redo. I'd like to think that I'd get this running tomorrow, but I have to clean the rotors, install both calipers, bleed the system (which is supposed to be hard when the master cylinder is dry), and install the carbs. The radiator fan didn't kick in during my last running test, but I aborted that when it became clear that the carb was leaking gas into the cylinder. I should probably check that, and clean the top of the engine better, and check the float heights. It is better not to have a fixed schedule with getting an old motorcycle running again - it's too tempting to cut corners to meet that schedule. I'm not doing the best job (far from it), and that's partially due to me trying to get this bike in a condition without sinking too much into it, but I'd rather do the jobs that are cheap and easy to do now that the motorcycle is partially disassembled.

On the plus side, I didn't do a compression test when the bike was warm (and dumping gasoline in the pistons), which I regretted until I read that if a bike hadn't been run in a few years, it's likely compression will climb a bit after the bike has been rode a few hundred miles. So I'll put that down as a future project.

I took some time off the Goldwing to remove the CM400's carbs on Friday and cleaned out the bowls due to a leak. I think I'm getting some rust on the needle valves. I don't know if it was a design choice or something later prohibited by stricter emission regulations, but the CM400 Keihin carbs have an overflow that connects to a drain line (3.5mm ID, if I'm remembering correctly) that dumps the fuel to the ground. (What's the GL1000's design?) The overflow tube is nifty, since it prevents a stuck float valve from causing gas to flow into the piston and leak past the rings to contaminate the oil. Kind of wish the GL1100 had that. OTOH, the GL1100 have a fuel filter, which the CM400 does not, and I really need to rectify that.