HOTTER COILS, easier
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OP
OP
It may very well be just the age thing.I also installed new wires and resister caps as well,but the main reason I made the swap was from all the good info on the 1100F forum.
Yes,they are shorter,which was the one and only mod I had to make,using my stock mounts and drilling one new hole.But I surely do not think the size is directly related to the spark.That would be saying we should be putting our big old coils on modern superbikes.
I periodically sell auto HI-PO coils at work to the hot rodders and there is no relation from physical size to spark.
Yes,they are shorter,which was the one and only mod I had to make,using my stock mounts and drilling one new hole.But I surely do not think the size is directly related to the spark.That would be saying we should be putting our big old coils on modern superbikes.
I periodically sell auto HI-PO coils at work to the hot rodders and there is no relation from physical size to spark.
A
Anonymous
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...dissapating the heat is my point. I'm certain the voltage can be found with the coils. I'm concerned that they will not dissipate the heat if run hot.
By "hot" I mean no secondary resistance and as little primary resistance as can be gotten away with and still keep the triggering/switching living a realiable life.
With all the voltage comes the heat.
Years ago they (manufacturers > racers) started trying to remove heat from the ignition coil(s) to make them last when used to the far-end of their design limits. Heat sinks were the norm.
Today, even O'Reiley sells coils with heat sinks: https://www.oreillyauto.com/site/c/detai ... &ppt=C0150
Heat kills a ignition coil. Admittedly, most do not run their ignitions hot, so size may not be a factor for most. I'm just pointing to what I'm noticing.
On the inverse, I see potential for >one of these at each cylinder< so long as the heat is controlled: https://www.ebay.com/itm/Gy6-50cc-150cc- ... 10&vxp=mtr
...just might be good bang-for-the-buck. I see them as low as $14.49 each, shipped.
By "hot" I mean no secondary resistance and as little primary resistance as can be gotten away with and still keep the triggering/switching living a realiable life.
With all the voltage comes the heat.
Years ago they (manufacturers > racers) started trying to remove heat from the ignition coil(s) to make them last when used to the far-end of their design limits. Heat sinks were the norm.
Today, even O'Reiley sells coils with heat sinks: https://www.oreillyauto.com/site/c/detai ... &ppt=C0150
Heat kills a ignition coil. Admittedly, most do not run their ignitions hot, so size may not be a factor for most. I'm just pointing to what I'm noticing.
On the inverse, I see potential for >one of these at each cylinder< so long as the heat is controlled: https://www.ebay.com/itm/Gy6-50cc-150cc- ... 10&vxp=mtr
...just might be good bang-for-the-buck. I see them as low as $14.49 each, shipped.
hmmm sounds good CM .....so this is a cdi and coil together ...what would it hook to a dyna with a fixed rotor no advancer
A
Anonymous
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With those, I don't know. May or may not need the advancer. I'd have to scope as I go on something like that.
I think they would work though.
I'd have to start stock and and go from there.
I'll probably get one just to see what they're about.
I have noticed a CDI box for those that is twice or more the size and claiming 3W output. Much more expensive set-up with the 3W box though.
I cant tell if I can get into the smaller box, if the wire is removeable, or what the specs on the box mean.
...just thoughts. I'm always thinking of ...more, ...More, ...MORE.
Would be a cool-factor too. Coil and ignitor down at each cylinder.
I'm not one for "bling", but that would be my kind of it so long as it works like I want it to.
I think they would work though.
I'd have to start stock and and go from there.
I'll probably get one just to see what they're about.
I have noticed a CDI box for those that is twice or more the size and claiming 3W output. Much more expensive set-up with the 3W box though.
I cant tell if I can get into the smaller box, if the wire is removeable, or what the specs on the box mean.
...just thoughts. I'm always thinking of ...more, ...More, ...MORE.
Would be a cool-factor too. Coil and ignitor down at each cylinder.
I'm not one for "bling", but that would be my kind of it so long as it works like I want it to.
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Ok, keeping this topic on the CBR COILS, here's a shot of the difference in size.
Not a direct swap for sure.
Here's a video, which aint worth a damn but I'm posting it anyway.
I'll try my other camera, maybe can get some real detail worth posting.
The couple times spark didn't happen is actually the camera not catching them, it did spark.
Not a direct swap for sure.
Here's a video, which aint worth a damn but I'm posting it anyway.
I'll try my other camera, maybe can get some real detail worth posting.
The couple times spark didn't happen is actually the camera not catching them, it did spark.
Curious as to how this works out. The little bit I am getting from newer coils to older coils is that new bikes and cars have timers which kept the coils from seeing voltage saturation the whole wait time. Our old gals didn't and don't have this capability. I am afraid that they may work great at first and fail prematurely due to overheating. I think that's what CM is wondering about too. Electronics aren't my strong suit, and I think a lot of average Joe mechanics gave up on being mechanics when everything went computerized, and electronics came on the seen, but if were going to keep these old bikes running and make improvements on them, I guess I better try and keep up. Those coils are remarkably smaller units.
OP
OP
I dont know much about the technoligy behind ignition coils,and what relation,if any there is between size and there performance.But I do know honda did not go backwards in technoligy in a 20 year span.
These coils are sufficiant for 1000cc sportbikes as well as 1500cc goldwings then why would you wonder if they are good enough for our 30 year old bikes?Perhaps you are over thinking it.
My initial post heading as HOTTER may not be correct as I do not know the specifics,perhaps I should have just said BETTER.
Again,this is not "my new idea".This is a very common swap on the early F bikes,and a successful one at that.I just thought I would share it here believing it is a much simpler way to improve ignition than some of the other good ideas.
These coils are sufficiant for 1000cc sportbikes as well as 1500cc goldwings then why would you wonder if they are good enough for our 30 year old bikes?Perhaps you are over thinking it.
My initial post heading as HOTTER may not be correct as I do not know the specifics,perhaps I should have just said BETTER.
Again,this is not "my new idea".This is a very common swap on the early F bikes,and a successful one at that.I just thought I would share it here believing it is a much simpler way to improve ignition than some of the other good ideas.
A
Anonymous
Guest
The difference with this is wether one is running points in a 1000 or not.
Points-type coils and electronic-type coils are different.
Kettering systems usually have more of everything: turns ratio, primary and secondary resistances, etc. because things happen slower.
Higher resistance in a points-type coil generally limits current draw to keep the points contacts from burning.
Lower resistance in electronic-type coils allows for consistancy. Think of the GM HEI modules. They all have current limiting features that effect and control rise time ensuring that each and every spark is consistantly the same as the next. Things happen quick with electronics, so things happen quick with ignition coils meant for electronic ignitions. Generally, the newer-the quicker. Low resistance coils with 10,000 ohms or more of resistance on the secondary is asking for trouble towards whatever is triggering the input voltage and dealing with the fly-back... Create a bottle-neck and something is going to give. I'm thinking the bottle-neck will show itself in heat. What will give? ...whatever is triggering it.
Unless thought is put through on these swaps the usual route is to put old with the old and new with the new, meaning don't mix a new electronic pick-up with a old point-style coil, or you may burn-up your electronic triggering device, and don't put a new-style coil on a old kettering trigger or you may not get the voltage you were hoping for. Food-for-thought, nothing is set in stone.
So yeah, saturation time is a potential "could be a problem" type of problem. Without specs of the coil, we're shooting blind in the dark. I'm a team player, but... I'm also cautious. When at a loss, I generally don't do what others do just to do it and hope or the best... I need specifications before I tear something up so that I've a valid excuse for spending the money to fix it again.
Smaller is good if it is as-good or better. If it ain't, then it will perform less. If heat becomes a issue because of mis-matched components, then smaller simply is not better.
Again, I think this negative aspect will only apply to 1000's running points. 1100's that are factory with electronic ignitions may see benefit if from nothing else of having a newer coil. Maybe the specs allow for a faster rise time with higher voltage output for a electronic set-up. If it's great for a stock 1100, it just may kill a stock 1000 even with a Dyna "S" trigger.
Points-type coils and electronic-type coils are different.
Kettering systems usually have more of everything: turns ratio, primary and secondary resistances, etc. because things happen slower.
Higher resistance in a points-type coil generally limits current draw to keep the points contacts from burning.
Lower resistance in electronic-type coils allows for consistancy. Think of the GM HEI modules. They all have current limiting features that effect and control rise time ensuring that each and every spark is consistantly the same as the next. Things happen quick with electronics, so things happen quick with ignition coils meant for electronic ignitions. Generally, the newer-the quicker. Low resistance coils with 10,000 ohms or more of resistance on the secondary is asking for trouble towards whatever is triggering the input voltage and dealing with the fly-back... Create a bottle-neck and something is going to give. I'm thinking the bottle-neck will show itself in heat. What will give? ...whatever is triggering it.
Unless thought is put through on these swaps the usual route is to put old with the old and new with the new, meaning don't mix a new electronic pick-up with a old point-style coil, or you may burn-up your electronic triggering device, and don't put a new-style coil on a old kettering trigger or you may not get the voltage you were hoping for. Food-for-thought, nothing is set in stone.
So yeah, saturation time is a potential "could be a problem" type of problem. Without specs of the coil, we're shooting blind in the dark. I'm a team player, but... I'm also cautious. When at a loss, I generally don't do what others do just to do it and hope or the best... I need specifications before I tear something up so that I've a valid excuse for spending the money to fix it again.
Smaller is good if it is as-good or better. If it ain't, then it will perform less. If heat becomes a issue because of mis-matched components, then smaller simply is not better.
Again, I think this negative aspect will only apply to 1000's running points. 1100's that are factory with electronic ignitions may see benefit if from nothing else of having a newer coil. Maybe the specs allow for a faster rise time with higher voltage output for a electronic set-up. If it's great for a stock 1100, it just may kill a stock 1000 even with a Dyna "S" trigger.
Thanks for that,CM do you think it's the points that will fry or that the coils will get too hot and fail?
A
Anonymous
Guest
I don't know who is running what.
If those are electronic coils, meaning for a electronic ignition system (which they are), then what kind of voltage is a 1000 going to try and supply the primary windings?
Aren't those coils looking for a shot from a CDI-type box?
My concern for a 1000 triggering from points or a Dyna "S" would be for a triggering mechanism breakdown via heat. Got no buffer.
I think the coils would get hot but last.
A 1100 has spark units that fire the coils, right? ... What kind of voltage does a 1100 put to the primary winding?
A 1000 has what: ... 7, 8, 9 volts dc firing the primary winding?
If those are electronic coils, meaning for a electronic ignition system (which they are), then what kind of voltage is a 1000 going to try and supply the primary windings?
Aren't those coils looking for a shot from a CDI-type box?
My concern for a 1000 triggering from points or a Dyna "S" would be for a triggering mechanism breakdown via heat. Got no buffer.
I think the coils would get hot but last.
A 1100 has spark units that fire the coils, right? ... What kind of voltage does a 1100 put to the primary winding?
A 1000 has what: ... 7, 8, 9 volts dc firing the primary winding?
I'm getting ready to do the CBR coil upgrade and I have a question I didn't see mentioned...
I have both sets of coils side by side. (CBR on left). Do the wires plugged into the coils swap out just as they are?
Each set of coils has 4 wires in a similar lay out, I would ASSUME they are a straight swap??
Next question: the ballast on the original coils - I didn't see that mounted in the upgrade---does it gets trashed?
I have the coils, new plugs, new plug caps - just need to get some solid core plug wire now...
Thanks in advance for the help with 1) the wire switch over and 2) the ballast.
Y'all are a BIG help to me :clapping:
I have both sets of coils side by side. (CBR on left). Do the wires plugged into the coils swap out just as they are?
Each set of coils has 4 wires in a similar lay out, I would ASSUME they are a straight swap??
Next question: the ballast on the original coils - I didn't see that mounted in the upgrade---does it gets trashed?
I have the coils, new plugs, new plug caps - just need to get some solid core plug wire now...
Thanks in advance for the help with 1) the wire switch over and 2) the ballast.
Y'all are a BIG help to me :clapping:
ok john to the best of my knowledge the 83 1100 is totally different than earlier yrs ...kind of a 1/2 way measure to the 1200 ignition set up ....so this is quite hard to answer as the 83 is so different ...but im thinking you can leave it off the ballist but who knows this is a mod ...you need to watch it close ...
looking at the pic,is that where there going to be mounted? right above the gas filler opening?seems that's alittle dangerous.
mwbill - no,no, no! I simply had them sitting there so I could shoot a side by side picture... I will fab up a mount to put the CBR coils in the factory location, once I'm squared away on the wiring.....
joe - I'm guessing the ballast can go, but I want to wait for confirmation from those who've done the swap...
joe - I'm guessing the ballast can go, but I want to wait for confirmation from those who've done the swap...
ok had me worried for a minute. i thought wow you could get ther really fast. lol but not where you wanted.
yes im just saying what one says about an 82 1100 is not going to apply to you ...the parts are totally different in the spark units ...as for the hook up on top of coils tory or dan could chime in on that ...and i think tory has an 83 ...not sure his wing is hooked up with cbr coils ...maybe
A
Anonymous
Guest
First, I have not done this modification.
As I understand these coils to be, they are 3.0-3.3 ohm coils.
So, if your GL runs like my GL, you'll need to have your trigger see roughly 3 ohms of resistance at the coil primary.
If your factory coils are running 3 ohms ballast at the input, then that is for the factory coils...
The CBR coiols, already being at 3 ohms, should be a straight match for the trigger (so-to-speak).
Ballast does nothing but lighten the load on the triggering device. There may be other arguements for its existance, but that's how I see it. Some say its purpose is to keep the coils cooler, etc..
So I would ohm the coils out and make sure that what has been found by others on other forums is accurate with what you have = 3 ohm coils.
...and run 'em with no ballast.
As I understand these coils to be, they are 3.0-3.3 ohm coils.
So, if your GL runs like my GL, you'll need to have your trigger see roughly 3 ohms of resistance at the coil primary.
If your factory coils are running 3 ohms ballast at the input, then that is for the factory coils...
The CBR coiols, already being at 3 ohms, should be a straight match for the trigger (so-to-speak).
Ballast does nothing but lighten the load on the triggering device. There may be other arguements for its existance, but that's how I see it. Some say its purpose is to keep the coils cooler, etc..
So I would ohm the coils out and make sure that what has been found by others on other forums is accurate with what you have = 3 ohm coils.
...and run 'em with no ballast.
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Normally ballast coils are 8 volt coils and the ballast is just a resistor to drop the voltage. If you eliminate the ballast on a 8 volt coil the coil gets hot as it is now flowing more current and you burn points. The advantage of a resistor coil (ballast) is that the circuit is bypassed on cranking and gives a hotter spark for easier starting. Early Fords had a resistance wire built into the wiring harness.
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Coil and coil compatibility, resistor needed or not, is a bit of a mystery throughout the forums.
There haven't been any concrete tests done that I know of with any of these mods, I.E the Neon coils and CBR coils.
So far what I'm seeing is (especially with the Neon coils) "Ive been running them for 2 years no problems". Statements like that with no actual tests having been done before hand.
The Neon coils may be just fine but we have to know the particulars like what year ignition, resistor or not, any other ignition mods.
Also, the Neon coils are working good right now but factor in the spark units that do melt down took many thousands of miles for the melt down to happen so what will happen later?
The biggest factor as I see it is preventing damage to the precious ignition components that are no longer available new. Well the spark units may be available but they are after market. At least we have that much but the pickups are not available new.
I'm no expert on this by any means, I'm learning right along with you guys but the way I understand it so far, the 83 ignition is no different from any other year 1100 ignition EXCEPT that a ballast resistor is used on the 83. The spark units (AFAIK) are exactly the same on all years. They have the same number on them right? They MUST be the same or they were swapped out at some time in the past?
The addition of the resistor on the 83 coils is what prevents the 83 spark units from melting like the earliers do because they have no resistor.
I have installed one CBR coil pack on my bike as a tester connected through the resistor my 83 coils were using.
I've been waiting to post what I found because I haven't mounted them to the frame yet, thought not being grounded could possibly have an effect on how hot the spark looks but from what I've observed the CBR coils don't seem to have as hot a spark as my stock 83 coils.
I'm tempted to run the CBR coils without a resistor but I need to find the spare set of spark units I'm sure I have somewhere in the garage before I do.
There haven't been any concrete tests done that I know of with any of these mods, I.E the Neon coils and CBR coils.
So far what I'm seeing is (especially with the Neon coils) "Ive been running them for 2 years no problems". Statements like that with no actual tests having been done before hand.
The Neon coils may be just fine but we have to know the particulars like what year ignition, resistor or not, any other ignition mods.
Also, the Neon coils are working good right now but factor in the spark units that do melt down took many thousands of miles for the melt down to happen so what will happen later?
The biggest factor as I see it is preventing damage to the precious ignition components that are no longer available new. Well the spark units may be available but they are after market. At least we have that much but the pickups are not available new.
I'm no expert on this by any means, I'm learning right along with you guys but the way I understand it so far, the 83 ignition is no different from any other year 1100 ignition EXCEPT that a ballast resistor is used on the 83. The spark units (AFAIK) are exactly the same on all years. They have the same number on them right? They MUST be the same or they were swapped out at some time in the past?
The addition of the resistor on the 83 coils is what prevents the 83 spark units from melting like the earliers do because they have no resistor.
I have installed one CBR coil pack on my bike as a tester connected through the resistor my 83 coils were using.
I've been waiting to post what I found because I haven't mounted them to the frame yet, thought not being grounded could possibly have an effect on how hot the spark looks but from what I've observed the CBR coils don't seem to have as hot a spark as my stock 83 coils.
I'm tempted to run the CBR coils without a resistor but I need to find the spare set of spark units I'm sure I have somewhere in the garage before I do.
