VW racer gets a C5 Ignition

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C5Performance

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Hortonville, Wisconsin
This is not Goldwing related but hey, its got a boxer engine, right?

We used my friends VW powered race buggy for testing.



The weather was about 60 degrees and windy but not a bad "work" day otherwise.

This is a slightly modified 1600cc engine. Compression is 12.5 to 1, using both 110 and 114 race fuel (they've tried both and so did we).
It has a custom camshaft but nothing too crazy done with the heads, valves, or crank.

Carb specs:
Carburetor was a Solex PICT 30 and a Brosol PICT 30. They've had carb issues with the Brosol and we ended up seeing awesome results once we tossed it out and put the Solex on.
The car was running "flat" on top and you could hear it stutter at high rpm all the way around the track. They changed main jets about 4 times...going richer with each change, but would give the same results. Installing the C5 made a huge improvement but then you could really hear the carb was not working correctly. In the end the new Solex worked much much better so we left it on the car.
We ended up with 160 main jets (the Brosol had 175 when we finally gave up trying to get more fuel).


Ignition specs:

I installed curves with the following max advance...37, 35, 32, 30
Rev limit was set to 6300 rpm but they told me these engines would never reach 6000 anyway, and if they did, the heads would blow up.

With the MSD or Compufire distributors they ran a max timing of 32. This is common and agreed upon "max" figures for this style engine.
They use single port heads, single carb, and a restrictor plate. Race fuel is required but octane can be any number. Most run 110-114 octane.

We started at 35 degrees of max timing, and the car really sounded nasty (in a good way). It pulled cleanly from the corners and was strong up until it bumped the rev limiter. WAIT...did I just say that? Yes, the car hits the rev limiter at 6300 constantly now. They told me that can't be right, but you can hear it plain as day between shifts and while under a load. There were times he had it against the limiter for over 4 seconds at a time!

Next we tried the 32 degree curve. That is what this engine previously used. Feedback from Jason was car pulled a little stronger from the corners and up hills but lacked the "punch" on long straights. He never went down to 30 degrees so I have no feedback for that. It was a fairly flat area with no big jumps so testing for extreme load was impossible.

As for the 37 degree curve, he didnt try that either. Jason felt it would be too much advance unless flying down a hill with a "no load" situation. The engine was freshly rebuilt after their previous electronic ignition failed. It fed 55 degrees of timing into it, and the car melted down a piston in less than a lap after it happened. Needless to say the engine tuner was nervous about over advancing the freshly rebuilt engine.

Next we are going to install a MAP sensor so the car can switch curves by itself. We will probably stay between the 30 and 35 figures, with a manual over ride for 37 (to be used only on flat or downhills).

We ran out of time. Installing the MSD back in the car was planned but never happened. We are going to try finding an affordable chassis dyno to compare the two. The engine tuners feeling was the car gained 2-3 hp. They make about 70-80 hp as it sits.

I will say this...at the end of the day Jason broke the track record by TWO full seconds (its a one mile course). It was a successful day of playing with the VW distributor.


Now to find me some fast sand rail customers!

 
Well I guess we can check Brosol off the list of possible single carbs to use. Dang! Looks like I'll need another c5 if I ever get my buggy assembled.
 
[url=https://www.classicgoldwings.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=99834#p99834:2yekljkj said:
zman » Sun Oct 13, 2013 11:24 am[/url]":2yekljkj]
Awsome!..Get him a Big C5 sticker for that buggy. :mrgreen:

They are not allowed to use our ignition. The rules state power must be fed through a distributor. This was a test, and since we gained so much speed the next step is to ask for a rule change, or build a custom distributor for our ignition.

MSD and Compufire currently dominate this market but MSD is in bankruptcy right now so we'd like to push hard for some long overdue rule changes that allow us to compete.

I forgot to mention that engine idle was 1,000 rpm with the Compufire and MSD ignitions, and 1,500 with the C5. That's a nice 500 rpm gain for us.
The engine tuner told me our ignition was screwing up their tach. He assumed it was reading incorrectly!
It sure started faster after our kit was installed. The other race cars ran like crap until warmed up.
 
[url=https://www.classicgoldwings.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=99835#p99835:2573farr said:
slabghost » Sun Oct 13, 2013 11:38 am[/url]":2573farr]
Well I guess we can check Brosol off the list of possible single carbs to use. Dang! Looks like I'll need another c5 if I ever get my buggy assembled.

The Brosol is used by many racers, but they transition poorly into the main jet, and stutter at high rpm.
I am generalizing but both cars yesterday did the same thing and were tuned and owned by different teams.
They said the car would not exceed 5700 rpm with those carbs installed, regardless of jetting.

After we installed the C5, it got much better. The 3/4 throttle popping was eliminated but the car still ran odd at high rpm.
You could hear it stutter and sounded rough even on flat ground with no bumps.
Then we installed the Solex PICT-1 and it awoke the beast inside!!!

Since both carbs are the same model type, I am at a loss for why the Solex worked so much better.
My Peugeot 404 cars used 34 PBICA-3 Solex carbs with no issues ever.
 
[url=https://www.classicgoldwings.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=99860#p99860:o3yxj3tq said:
dan filipi » Sun Oct 13, 2013 3:31 pm[/url]":eek:3yxj3tq]
Got any video, Paul?

I have a little. We were timing laps so I didn't always have the camera on.
I will post a few clips tonight. Heading to Emerald's birthday party right now. My daughter turns 24 today. Love you Emmy! :eek:k:
 
[url=https://www.classicgoldwings.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=99868#p99868:h1dfwf5e said:
dan filipi » Sun Oct 13, 2013 4:49 pm[/url]":h1dfwf5e]
Are you trying to say you have a life outside the ignition and forums? :whip:

Ummmm...errr. Dang, ya caught me trying to be a family man. She might get to choose which retirement home I end up at one day!
 
Paul it may be a good idea to invest in a photo optical tach so that you can easily prove the actual rpm :yes:
 
[url=https://www.classicgoldwings.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=99937#p99937:17g3vsx4 said:
Ansimp » Mon Oct 14, 2013 7:13 am[/url]":17g3vsx4]
Paul it may be a good idea to invest in a photo optical tach so that you can easily prove the actual rpm :yes:

I dont understand what you mean by that statement. The car has a quality race tach in it already?
 
[url=https://www.classicgoldwings.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=99844#p99844:2jo90sle said:
C5Performance » Sun Oct 13, 2013 1:16 pm[/url]":2jo90sle]
[url=https://www.classicgoldwings.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=99834#p99834:2jo90sle said:
zman » Sun Oct 13, 2013 11:24 am[/url]":2jo90sle]
Awsome!..Get him a Big C5 sticker for that buggy. :mrgreen:

They are not allowed to use our ignition. The rules state power must be fed through a distributor. This was a test, and since we gained so much speed the next step is to ask for a rule change, or build a custom distributor for our ignition.

MSD and Compufire currently dominate this market but MSD is in bankruptcy right now so we'd like to push hard for some long overdue rule changes that allow us to compete.

I forgot to mention that engine idle was 1,000 rpm with the Compufire and MSD ignitions, and 1,500 with the C5. That's a nice 500 rpm gain for us.
The engine tuner told me our ignition was screwing up their tach. He assumed it was reading incorrectly!
It sure started faster after our kit was installed. The other race cars ran like crap until warmed up.
C5Performance":2jo90sle said:
[url=https://www.classicgoldwings.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=99937#p99937:2jo90sle said:
Ansimp » Mon Oct 14, 2013 7:13 am[/url]":2jo90sle]
Paul it may be a good idea to invest in a photo optical tach so that you can easily prove the actual rpm :yes:

I dont understand what you mean by that statement. The car has a quality race tach in it already?
Probably reference to the quote in red.
 
[url=https://www.classicgoldwings.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=99955#p99955:1b3wocyk said:
C5Performance » Mon Oct 14, 2013 7:45 am[/url]":1b3wocyk]
[url=https://www.classicgoldwings.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=99937#p99937:1b3wocyk said:
Ansimp » Mon Oct 14, 2013 7:13 am[/url]":1b3wocyk]
Paul it may be a good idea to invest in a photo optical tach so that you can easily prove the actual rpm :yes:

I dont understand what you mean by that statement. The car has a quality race tach in it already?
I suppose if ya wanted to shoot video that would be cool.
The 1100 has a mechanical tach so it's easy to see the rpm increased.
 
[url=https://www.classicgoldwings.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=99957#p99957:3dpguysd said:
slabghost » Mon Oct 14, 2013 9:51 am[/url]":3dpguysd]
[url=https://www.classicgoldwings.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=99844#p99844:3dpguysd said:
C5Performance » Sun Oct 13, 2013 1:16 pm[/url]":3dpguysd]
[url=https://www.classicgoldwings.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=99834#p99834:3dpguysd said:
zman » Sun Oct 13, 2013 11:24 am[/url]":3dpguysd]
Awsome!..Get him a Big C5 sticker for that buggy. :mrgreen:

They are not allowed to use our ignition. The rules state power must be fed through a distributor. This was a test, and since we gained so much speed the next step is to ask for a rule change, or build a custom distributor for our ignition.

MSD and Compufire currently dominate this market but MSD is in bankruptcy right now so we'd like to push hard for some long overdue rule changes that allow us to compete.

I forgot to mention that engine idle was 1,000 rpm with the Compufire and MSD ignitions, and 1,500 with the C5. That's a nice 500 rpm gain for us.
The engine tuner told me our ignition was screwing up their tach. He assumed it was reading incorrectly!
It sure started faster after our kit was installed. The other race cars ran like crap until warmed up.
C5Performance":3dpguysd said:
[url=https://www.classicgoldwings.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=99937#p99937:3dpguysd said:
Ansimp » Mon Oct 14, 2013 7:13 am[/url]":3dpguysd]
Paul it may be a good idea to invest in a photo optical tach so that you can easily prove the actual rpm :yes:

I dont understand what you mean by that statement. The car has a quality race tach in it already?
Probably reference to the quote in red.


That would make more sense now that you highlighted it.
What i was trying to say is that after multi-sparking the buggy, idle was 500 rpm higher.
Since Mike was unfamiliar with this ignition he assumed the tach was reading high. We had just changed tach output to match their race tach....previously it was reading too low (the C5 was set to 2 cyl and not 4 cyl which changes how fast the needle climbs).

For those familiar with our curves, I installed a GL1000 curve to start, then dropped max timing to 37, 35, 32, and 30.
Rev limiter was set at 6300 even though Mike (car owner) felt it would never exceed 5700 based on past races.
 
One other thing I noticed, after installing the C5, the engine will more easily rev up in rpm.
Sounds weird but what I notice is high revs are smoother and the engine sounds and feels happier and less labored at high rpms.
 
[url=https://www.classicgoldwings.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=99961#p99961:3hg25tnc said:
dan filipi » Mon Oct 14, 2013 10:17 am[/url]":3hg25tnc]
One other thing I noticed, after installing the C5, the engine will more easily rev up in rpm.
Sounds weird but what I notice is high revs are smoother and the engine sounds and feels happier and less labored at high rpms.

Dan you are spot on. I wished we brought my camera mount, since we ran a "sister car" there as well. Ours ripped up the rpms so fast they hit the limiter even between jumps and in fourth gear. The other car sounded much rougher at high rpm. It was obvious by the sound. The cars are built with virtually identical engine specs and use the same carb with restrictor plate.

We can't share all information because we might be racing next year with a "class legal" version of the C5.
I will have Dan post the video on CGW's YouTube so it's not on my personal page.
 
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