Coils and ignition (Post split from Joe's Mongrel thread)

from here i plan on goin through the wiring for the moded ignition i plan on putting in this bike ...i have four stick coils thst hook to the plugs im going to mod to the 77 ...they fit gxr suzuki bikes ... to the best of my knowledge there 3ohm ...the ignition being used to go with them is dyna....there will be no ballist resistor in the system ...there will be no main ignition goin through kill switch and starter button ...the start circuirt will be the same as before through starter button ... im kinda driving blind here theres not much info and what there is dont realy understand well ...so im looking for input to help me get through this ...there will be a relay involved in the main ignition

with the carbs off the bike like they are now is the time to go after this to hook everthing up the room will be plenty to get things right ...im planning for the carbs to be last thing to go on .... :mrgreen:

joedrum":1a235soo said:

... to the best of my knowledge there 3ohm

Click to expand...

NO - they (Suzuki sticks) should be about 1.3 ohms each.
You will pair them up (each bank, just like a factory coil) for total resistance of about 2.6 ohms to match whatever ignition you are going to use.
If using a Dyna trigger (I don't know what you're using) such as the "S" to fire off the coils, then 1.3ohm coils (X2 = 2.6ohm) should be fine.

Wiring is straight forward. Make a harness using a 4-prong trailer plug (or something similar) to simplify things in and out.

Plenty of write-ups on using these on other forums.

So these coils will be firing a waste spark then? I am guessing there's no easy way to avoid that.

CM85":ld13p26k said:

joedrum":ld13p26k said:

... to the best of my knowledge there 3ohm

Click to expand...

NO - they (Suzuki sticks) should be about 1.3 ohms each.
You will pair them up (each bank, just like a factory coil) for total resistance of about 2.6 ohms to match whatever ignition you are going to use.
If using a Dyna trigger (I don't know what you're using) such as the "S" to fire off the coils, then 1.3ohm coils (X2 = 2.6ohm) should be fine.

Wiring is straight forward. Make a harness using a 4-prong trailer plug (or something similar) to simplify things in and out.

Plenty of write-ups on using these on other forums.

Click to expand...

Can you post a typical wiring plan for these? I have read on several sites that the early gsxr stick coils are 3ohm. Not saying you are wrong it's just very hard to find real info for this.

slabghost":2fb7lbis said:

CM85":2fb7lbis said:

joedrum":2fb7lbis said:

... to the best of my knowledge there 3ohm

Click to expand...

NO - they (Suzuki sticks) should be about 1.3 ohms each.
You will pair them up (each bank, just like a factory coil) for total resistance of about 2.6 ohms to match whatever ignition you are going to use.
If using a Dyna trigger (I don't know what you're using) such as the "S" to fire off the coils, then 1.3ohm coils (X2 = 2.6ohm) should be fine.

Wiring is straight forward. Make a harness using a 4-prong trailer plug (or something similar) to simplify things in and out.

Plenty of write-ups on using these on other forums.

Click to expand...

Can you post a typical wiring plan for these? I have read on several sites that the early gsxr stick coils are 3ohm. Not saying you are wrong it's just very hard to find real info for this.

Click to expand...

Try this page for now. I can draw up a wiring diagram if you like tomorrow.

no eric theres not that i know of to rid the wasted spark...but im convinced this is the way i want to go ....c85 with this info it sounds doable wish there were some ride reports on the mod to the cbr witch ignitions are far newer than oldwings ,,,thanks for the input ..it greatly helps :mrgreen:

We can make our ignitions as new as theirs.
Plenty of factory Jap ignitions on eBay for cheap $$$ to play with. Most optical ignition plates are inexpensive and we already have a plate in our GL to go off of. Clock the optical pick-ups where they're needed for a GL and transplant. All sorts of amplifiers out there to work with - from mild to wild, cars, bikes, race-stuff, you name it.

Me? I run a Dyna III trigger plate to the Dyna amplifier right now. Been playing with some stuff though. I'm not interested in COP. I see no real advantage. Been running 1100 coils and getting over 20K volts to the plugs at idle. I run 8ga. amplifier power cable for ignition wire. The factory skinny stuff can't handle the voltage. I run no secondary resistance and I run 1.3 ohm ballast on the primary side that is switched in or out. I call it running the ignition "hot". I run D7EA's at .045, and I think that is conservative.

Been working on my own amplified optical ignition with electronic advance and some other stuff.

My ignition is about as waterproof as it gets for what it is:

Found this:
https://www.xs11.com/forum/showthread.php?t=34875 along with this comment a ways down:

I'll repeat this... if converting to later stick or mini coils, even if the coils measure the same ohms, you have to verify if they are designed to operate on a 'dwell control' type ignition. If they are (and almost all coil-on-plug ignitions now feature this) and your ignition doesn't have this, the coils will burn up...

What happens is the dwell control ignitions limits the duration of the 'power pulse' (that fires the plug) to a maximum time (usually less than 30 ms). At high rpms, it's not needed as the firing pulses are short. But at low/mid rpms without the dwell control, the pulses will be longer and the coil will have time to saturate. Once it reaches saturation, current will go up quickly and the coil will start heating. Because of their compact size and lighter-gauge wire, these coils can't take this for long.

I found this out when looking for new coils for one of my XSs; Dyna makes a 'mini-coil' (same ohms, same mounting, more compact) that points the plug wires straight back just like the OEM coils, so it looked like a perfect solution. But I was informed by their tech that without this dwell control built-in to the ignition, they would fail quickly.


So my question is: Does the Dyna S or Dyna III have a built in dwell control function? If not, it sounds like these could go up in smoke a little early, according to this writer.

Further down the page he writes: The big advantage to a coil-on-plug ignition is they can 'tune' the coil for a much better spark at high rpm without having to worry about saturation at low speeds. A conventional 'multi-plug' coil, because it has to fire more often, has more trouble producing a big spark. But to avoid a large, bulky coil that would be needed to operate at all rpm ranges, they use dwell control to limit the time the coil is energized to the same amount as when running at high rpm.

The XS ignition system isn't all that bad; you're only firing two plugs, unlike the older cars where a single coil would be firing all the plugs. Many of the newer cars also use the 'wasted spark' system, with one coil per pair of cylinders. But dwell control would be a nice upgrade, then you could use a better coil. I'm sure you could get at least close to the performance of a coil-on-plug system if that were available for these bikes...
__________________

hmmmmm

The GM HEI mod would have the dwell control feature. I am unsure if it is enough. GM had low ohm coils.

hmmm seems to be some issues here i know that the dynas S have no dwell ....honda man make an electronic ampifier box that uses points to activate it ...at such a low level they last forever ...and this has dwell in operation ... so im going to look into that ....the threads were good but ...the bad sign was no ride reports at all it just all stops with instalation ...thats not good ...reminds me of single carb stuff people just drop sometimes from the difficulty in getting them right ....hmmmm

There are quite a few who have used the HEI mod on Kawis. https://home.comcast.net/~loudgpz/GPZweb ... vCoil.html I spoke with him about using gm coils and he thought we might be better off with Dyna. I wonder if I can get him to opine about HEI and COP or stick coils. The guys name is Lou.

This one is for points: https://home.comcast.net/~loudgpz/GPZweb ... oints.html This one uses commonly found gm HEI pulser. I have two and the resistors I was looking at for doing mine, but haven't found the right coils yet. I have a bunch of 3.8 coils but they are lower ohm, 0.5, and I am afraid they will overheat or backfeed and fry the pulser. It sounds to me like the sticks are 1.5 ohm and if run together, they would be 3 ohm and be correct for the bike.

here is what i think is the perfect 1000 wing setup for ignition ...from info evaluelation..no experience with it https://sohc4shop.com/catalog/product_in ... ucts_id=32
i wonder if the dwell there talking about here will work with the stick coils ... :headscratch:

ekvh":3qu63k5h said:

Found this:
https://www.xs11.com/forum/showthread.php?t=34875 along with this comment a ways down:

I'll repeat this... if converting to later stick or mini coils, even if the coils measure the same ohms, you have to verify if they are designed to operate on a 'dwell control' type ignition. If they are (and almost all coil-on-plug ignitions now feature this) and your ignition doesn't have this, the coils will burn up...

What happens is the dwell control ignitions limits the duration of the 'power pulse' (that fires the plug) to a maximum time (usually less than 30 ms). At high rpms, it's not needed as the firing pulses are short. But at low/mid rpms without the dwell control, the pulses will be longer and the coil will have time to saturate. Once it reaches saturation, current will go up quickly and the coil will start heating. Because of their compact size and lighter-gauge wire, these coils can't take this for long.

I found this out when looking for new coils for one of my XSs; Dyna makes a 'mini-coil' (same ohms, same mounting, more compact) that points the plug wires straight back just like the OEM coils, so it looked like a perfect solution. But I was informed by their tech that without this dwell control built-in to the ignition, they would fail quickly.


So my question is: Does the Dyna S or Dyna III have a built in dwell control function? If not, it sounds like these could go up in smoke a little early, according to this writer.

Further down the page he writes: The big advantage to a coil-on-plug ignition is they can 'tune' the coil for a much better spark at high rpm without having to worry about saturation at low speeds. A conventional 'multi-plug' coil, because it has to fire more often, has more trouble producing a big spark. But to avoid a large, bulky coil that would be needed to operate at all rpm ranges, they use dwell control to limit the time the coil is energized to the same amount as when running at high rpm.

The XS ignition system isn't all that bad; you're only firing two plugs, unlike the older cars where a single coil would be firing all the plugs. Many of the newer cars also use the 'wasted spark' system, with one coil per pair of cylinders. But dwell control would be a nice upgrade, then you could use a better coil. I'm sure you could get at least close to the performance of a coil-on-plug system if that were available for these bikes...
__________________

Click to expand...

Short of running a dedicated control circuit, or a computer, your only reasonable option is to precisely calculate and then regulate the input voltage (primary side voltage) based on the coils inductance needs (coil diameter, height, number of turns both primary and secondary, core diameter and material, case structure and other heat retaining/disapating qualities, etc.) relavant to the saturation time required to effectively fire off the plug that you are going to use (which moves into combustion chamber characteristics).

This is why most all "mini coils" have feedback terminals - to tell the computer when to turn the tranistors on and off to control saturation time (dwell).

Yeah, COP coils can have them too in either 3 or 4-wire coils. 4-wire COP coils are always feedback coils and 3-wire COP coils can be either feedback or not. 3-wire non-feedback coils have ignition modules built into them, so to speak, so knowing the specs of a given coil is important.

Example - I've some mini coils from a '98 Toyota. They are 4-wire feedback coils. They do not have internal ignition modules and rely on a external module, or amplifier, to act as controller for the coil. Though they have switching transistors in them, they do not control dwell or coil saturation time. The transistors turn on and off inductively informing the computer (ECM) after-the-fact - in microseconds.
Comparitively, a 3-wire COP coils' trigger wire, when switched on, allows the primary winding to charge the coil via a internal transistor (called a driver) and discharges through the secondary winding when switched off. Unplugging a cylinder to drop it for testing whatever will usually burn up the transistor because it cannot unload itself and will overheat, rendering the coil inoperative. Doesn't take much.

Again, I see no benefit in using COP as some very high voltages can be obtained and controlled using factory coils.

Standard plug gap voltages at idle (where voltage is highest) are around 7-8Kv.
I'm getting 22+Kv by optimizing what is already there (kind of = Dyna III + GL1100 coils + some big damn ht leads).

Being different is cool though. I'd be interesteed in knowing what voltages you get out of them once you've installed it all and it's on a secondary Kv scope (assuming you do that). Running those in a "fixed input" voltage would seem interesting if viewed on a scope while running.

So, keep in mind, your largest dwell time will be at idle. As RPM increases, so dwell decreases. Start your calculations of voltage and current for idle and load them puppies as much as possible. That's my advice.

Joe, I never thought you'd get along with COPs anyways. The way I understand, or don't understand if you will, is the built in dwell of the HEI mod will be useless with the application on a GL without a computer. The few posts I have found on these from the backyarders like myself is that they install them, report that they run well. Then they return and inform us that they have smoked either the coil or the ECU on the bike or car. I am tending to think Dyna with Dyna coils best. I believe people are getting the Neon coils to last provided they have the right ballast in them. The relay is a definite plus for them too.

Wether it's a COP (coil on plug = control module away from the coil) or a CAM (coil and module = control module within the coil) coil, a 7-pin HEI module can be used as a ignitor.

IGT line from computer tells the coil primary winding transistor in what time to turn on and off to fire a coil.
IGC line from ignitor tells the same as IGT line. Not all systems use a IGC line though. If it is used, then it is always used with (and after) a IGT line.
IGF line from coil tells the computer that the coil is working or has worked.

So, COP or CAM + 7-pin GM HEI Module is something to think about, but...

IGT (the trigger wire) needs a square wave input to charge the coil for whatever time period you want for dwell...

??? - ...how you gonna get that? What pin you gonna use of a 7-pin? How you gonna control its output?
As I see it, you cannot just wire-in a 7-pin and go and expect optimum anything. May get the engine running, but it won't be right. There's no timing control of the event to properly charge these coils.

...still need a controller, not just a A/D converter, which essentially is all this is, allowing the coil to charge and then fire off like a loose cannon.

Picking the right stick to use with this is key.. Applying a fixed input voltage to it is the simplest way to get it going. If the value is conservative, the coils should last indefinitely. If they're a bit on the hot side, then you're probably not going to ride it as a daily commuter. If they're really hot, you're bar-hopping on the weekends and that's about it.

Like I said earlier, there are plenty of ways in using these types of coils. Can get as complicated or as simple as need be.

If you don't get it, then I certainly don't. Looks like I need to stick with the older stuff. I have a set of Dynas on my daily rider. I may steal that or try the Neon coils.

:lazy: :lazy: :lazy:

Check this out....

...the result of running a little too hot on the primary and secondary sides. This Dyna "S" module couldn't take the heat and got outta the kitchen in a sad way.
See what those parts are in there?

Got this set of modules for $5.99 shipped off of eBay (and a bunch more like them).
These are Yamaha XS-400 pieces.
What do I care if they're Dyna or not, ...I'm experimenting and a Hall sensor is a Hall sensor.
If I cook 'em then so what. they were inexpensive (I didn't cook 'em though).
I'm a bit thrifty when it comes to my experimenting, because in the end when I sit down and design-out what it is that I know I want, I want it right.
I experimented with both sticks and mini's, and decided to keep it all simple, which is something I could not do with having to add-in additional controls.
I wanted reliable, high spark voltages to burn the amount of stuff I'm putting in my combustion chambers and the 1100 coils fit the bill nicely for the cost involved.
Picking the right amount of ballast for the input and the correct spec'd wire for ht leads gave me what I wanted.
I've now 3X the amount of voltage at the sparkplug, day-in and day-out, that originally came with the bike when it was new.
What more should I want?
Coil-on-Plug simply reduces the amount of parts in the secondary ignition circuit. Nothing anywhere says using them increases sparkplug voltage just by their use alone.
It's the old street-racer in me I guess. All the fancy stuff looks and sounds great, ...but I want results that I can use.