1985 Limited Edition and 1986 SE-i Fuel Injection Motorcycles

[Rednaxs60]

Have been reviewing what aftermarket Speeduino or Speeduino compatible interface boards. The Arduino Mega 2560 R3 is the microprocessor of choice; however, there are other microprocessors being used. There is the Arduino 2560 "Pro", a compact version of the Mega 2560, but with all the same features, reported to have a faster processor - always good.

Most interface boards can do 2 channel fuel and ignition as a minimum, such as the NO2C (no overhang 2 channel). Very small footprint, and the original version lacks future proofing in my opinion. The later versions upgraded the NO2C and it is now a formidable interface board. It does have a dedicated tachometer output, unlike the Speeduino v0.3 and 0.4 boards that do not.

The UA4C (Under Arduino 4 Channel) and now its big brother, Ocelot from Wmtronics: https://wtmtronics.com/. There is an NO2C and interface boards v0.4.4d and v0.3x as well. The UA4C is a full featured interface board, needs an Arduino Mega 2560, that has all the features of a Speeduino interface board, including an on board MAP and Baro sensor, and a dedicated tach output pin. The Ocelot is the same but the Arduino microprocessor is integrated with the interface board, no need for a separate Arduino Mega 2560 microprocessor. Wmtronics sells a case/enclosure for the Ocelot as well as a wiring harness. You can get a case/enclosure for the UA4C form other sources.

Openlogicefi is another third party Speeduino compatible ECU supplier. It has some interesting ECU units that will definitely do the job. There is the Spark Gap X4 using the Arduino 2560 Pro microprocessor, has a dedicated tachometer output pin, and has the MAP and Baro sensors installed. It uses a USB-C connection to connect to a computer. It is sold as a fully compatible Speeduino ECU with case/enclosure, and connector(s). There is the Pre-igntion X4 Slim with case, both MAP and Baro sensors installed and a dedicated tachometer output pin. There is the Closed Deck X4 as well. Good options all round.

There is the Speeduino Dropbear ECU, a big brother to the v0.4 and v0.3 boards. It uses a different microprocessor, the teensy 3.5, comes with case/enclosure, on board baro sensor, and appears to have a dedicated tachometer output pin. It is being used in the Turbinator II, check it out. Web site: https://www.teamvesco.com/. It is quite fast at 503 MPH, and with an open source ECU installed.

The Blitzbox, designed by tooly and chaochris. It has a small footprint and has evolved significantly form inception. The forum thread is: https://speeduino.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2900. A good read and for consideration.

There are more Speeduino ECU compatible clones that are being used and evolving, would take a while to compile a good synopsis of what is available.

I have been looking for a second Speeduino compatible board/ECU for my GW project or for small/large projects that I would like to do bench testing with. One of these projects is a replacement for the 1200 ignition control units (ICU). I am leaning towards the openlogicefi ECUs but have not committed.

The take away from this post is that you need to investigate all features that an EFI system affords you. I think that an installed baro sensor is necessary, as well as a dedicated tach output. This is so you do not have to install additional circuits for these two items.

There is the issue with the correct tach output signal from the new ECU. It will be different that the OEM tach signal. The OEM CFI tach signal is generated from numbers 1/3 fuel injectors to the travel computer, then on to the digital dash. I reviewed my posts on the Speeduino forum and found that the digital dash readout was non-existent from the get go. Will be investigating this so I have a dash RPM indication.

Just a few more thoughts on the EFI world. If you do consider using the Speeduino Project ECUs, even for bench test projects, recommend a donation to Josh Stewart, spends a lot of time developing this product.

Cheers

 

[Rednaxs60]

Good morning. Research is never ending. Found an EFI ECU that is no bigger then a deck of cards. It is called the C2C - Compact 2 Channel ECU. It is a good option for a basic EFI install with paired injectors and wasted spark.

The specs are:

On-board USB
Internal MAP Sensor (4 Bar)
Connector for optional Bluetooth module

Outputs:

• 2 ignition channels (Low/Logic level)
• 2 injector channels
• 4 Low side outputs
  • Idle
  • Boost
  • VVT
  • Fuel pump
• Tachometer
• 5v Sensor supply

Inputs:

• Throttle position sensor (TPS)
• Coolant temperature sensor (CLT)
• Air temperature sensor (IAT)
• O2 sensor (narrowband or wideband)
• Launch control (Clutch switch)
• Hall Effect Crank/Cam (VR with optional daughter-board and module)

The reason it is so small is the Arduino microprocessor chip is part of the interface board much like the Ocelot, no need for an Arduino Mega 2560 add-on board.

The C2C is made by DIY-EFI in the UK. Cost is 200.00 UK dollars.

This would be a good option for an ignition only based install for the 1200 carb models.

For pics of this unit, check out the DIY-EFI web site: https://diy-efi.co.uk/product/c2c

Cheers

 

[Rednaxs60]

Thanks for the likes. Next post will be on fuelling.

 

[Dusterdude]

Groovy

 

[Rednaxs60]

Good afternoon. Put together a post on EFI fuelling. It is my understanding of what happens, and can be done. It's rather long, but I hope it's beneficial.

Fuelling – VE tables

Where to start with this one. ITB, Port fuel injector profiles.

Note: this post is based on the good, better, best premise.

Individual Throttle Body (ITB). Research indicates this is a better than carburetors EFI fuelling system; however, it retains a lot of the issues associated with carburetors. It can be a less expensive way to get into the EFI world, and is heralded as a good EFI fuel injector install.

The size of the ITB is always a question. For Gold Wing (GW) owners, this is not an easy proposition, but let me surmise that an ITB with a throat size similar to the intake runner size of the ‘85/’86 GWFI would be a good place to start.

An ITB is generally mounted remote to the engine cylinder. This maintains the issues of wall wetting, fuel atomization, air-fuel mixture and such that is the same as that for carburetors.

Fuel enrichment is another consideration. Calibrating these additional fuel requirements can be a challenge.

The bottom line is that the remote installation of an ITB and the distance it is from the cylinder in question, is a challenging endeavour.

Lots of EFI conversion ITB installs being used.

Port fuel injection. The next iteration of fuel injection is port injection. If the information I have read is correct, a better fuel injector installation. This is where the fuel injectors are located just above the cylinder intake valve and the fuel injector(s) are installed to spray the fuel required onto the intake valve for atomization (hot air intake valve) and mix with the air being drawn into the intake valve area. This air-fuel mixture is drawn into the cylinder when the intake valve opens. The normal fuel injection in this configuration is generally for paired injectors.

The issues of wall wetting, better/proper fuel atomization, trying to get a good air-fuel ratio and such are all but a memory. This is not to say there are not issues, but a port fuel injector installation is a better option if it is within your budget and space available.

Calibrating the VE (fuel) table is more accurate due to the location of the fuel injector, and should take less time to “dial” in.

Honda used port fuel injection on the ‘85/’86 GW FI models. Can’t comment on the earlier turbo models.

Sequential port (point) fuel injection (SPFI). This iteration of fuel injection is single port (point) fuel injection is the best fuel injector installation and usage. This is the same as port fuel injection except that fuel is sprayed into the intake valve area when it is time to fire that specific cylinder. The fuel injectors are not paired, regardless of the number of cylinders. This fuel injector arrangement allows for better VE (fuel) table calibration, and if the ECU has the individual cylinder fuel trim (ICFT), you will be able to “balance” the fuel injectors to get the best power performance from the engine. This negates the need to purchase a “balanced” set of fuel injectors, but allows the use of fuel injectors that exhibit the same flow characteristics.

The complement to SPFI is sequential ignition.

SPFI benefits the engine tune by spraying the fuel into the intake valve area when needed, maintaining the correct air-fuel ratio as close to what is required.

The above information is based on many hours of research, and my understanding of the topic. There is no right/wrong regarding the above, personal preference, budget, space availability, expertise all come to play in your decision.

Fueling profiles. These are well discussed in the various forums, and EFI sites. The profiles to be discussed are speed density (SD), Alpha-N, and blended. Getting a handle on the engine fuelling requirement is paramount.

Speed density (SD) uses the manifold absolute pressure (MAP – cylinder vacuum) as the engine load and engine RPM. This is the most popular fuelling profile, and can be the easiest for calibrating the engine tune. This fuelling profile is recommended as the starting point for an EFI engine tune.

An issue with using an SD fuelling profile with the GW engine(s) is that there is a small MAP window that can be used for VE table calibration. The VE table load axis can be configured to better represent the engine MAP profile. When the VE table load axis is modified, ensure the spark and AFR table load axis are changed to suit.

It is recommended that calibrating this fuelling profile before moving onto a different fuelling profile be a priority.

Alpha-N, alpha – indicating throttle opening, and “N” – engine RPM is the second most used fuelling profile. This fuelling profile uses the throttle position sensor (TPS) as the engine load indication, and engine RPM.

This fuelling profile is generally used with high performance engines such as race cars, and with ITB EFI installs.

The basis for this fuelling profile is that at higher powers, engine MAP can be extremely close to atmospheric pressure, wide open throttle (WOT). When using an ITB, engine MAP can input a system fuelling lag. Using a TPS based fuelling profile allows for better low power throttle response because when the throttle plates are opened, there is a significant inrush of air into the cylinders, drawing the fuel into the cylinders faster than if using the SD fuelling profile.

This fueling profile can be more difficult to “dial” in for a good engine tune. It is also mentioned that this fuelling profile is generally area specific, and may the engine tune may have to be recalibrated depending on where you travel. The use of a barometric sensor signal with the Alpha-N fuelling profile has been reported as beneficial.

Note: a barometric sensor signal is beneficial when using an SD fuelling profile.

Blended fuelling profile(s). This is an interesting topic. There are two fuelling and spark tables in the Speeduino ECU engine tune. This allows the user/tuner to further refine the engine tune.

You can use a blended set of VE tables using the SD or Alpha-N fuelling profiles, or a combination of SD and Alpha-N fuelling profiles.

You can also use these tables to provide additional calibration resolution for more precise fuelling. An example is to use the primary VE table for the first, say, 20% of throttle opening, and switching to the second VE table for the remainder of the throttle opening up to 100%. The switching point is user defined.

Using the blended fuelling profile comes with a couple of interesting concepts. The cell values represent a percentage of the Required Fuel amount that will be injected when the engine is at a given speed/load point.

Blended fuel uses four operational modes; multiplied, added, switched - conditional, and switched – input based.

Multiplied mode is where the two tables are used together. The ECU will adjust the fuelling to coincide with the average of the table cell values to adjust the fuel percentage.

An example is:

Primary VE table cell value: 80
Secondary VE table cell value: 75

Final fuel percentage: (80 X 75)/100 = 60

This mode is generally used with an ITB EFI installation so that TPS and MAP engine loading can be used.

Added Mode is similar to the modified mode, but instead of multiplying the cell values to get a result, the cell values are added together. This mode is not commonly used.

Switched – Conditional is used to allow the second VE table to provide the information to the ECU for engine operation. In other words, use the primary VE table to a user defined decision point, then switch to the second VE table for the remainder of engine operation. The decision switching values that can be use are:

RPM
TPS
MAP
Ethanol content

Switched – Input Based is used when a signal is received by the ECU that initiates a change from one VE table to the next. Input signals that can be used are:

- An Arduino pin that the input is connected to
- The polarity of the input (IE Is the secondary fuel table used with the signal is high or low). For a standard ground switching input, this should be Low
- Whether to use the internal pullup on this input. For a standard ground switching input, this should be Yes

If you have read this far, much appreciated. Hopefully the above information is as clear as mud!

Cheers

 

[Rednaxs60]

You gentlemen need to get a life as do I. Thanks for reading and the likes. Thinking that you are doing the "like" just to keep me going. Going to pontificate a bit.

It is interesting as I delve further into the EFI world what you learn. Seems the EFI world is full of EFI concepts meaning you will have to hoist in the concept, understand it, then apply it. Hard and fast specifics, help and information is generally based on troubleshooting and what has worked, then applied. This information is great when found or given, but if not, on with the troubleshooting to correct the issue.

The Speeduino Project ECU is a great learning experience and still being developed as open source. The Micro/Mega squirt ECUs are quite mature and there does not appear to be continued development of the ECU code.

This is key for us new to the aftermarket EFI ECU world. If one is so inclined, you can dive in, learn the programming language, develop your own Speeduino compatible ECU interface board, have it made, bench test and trial your concepts before doing a real world trial.

Even if you do not venture down the development highway, it will be a worthwhile venture. I have noticed the differences between the various countries when developing a concept board, having it produced, refined and then used. Having this done in Canada or from Canada is much more challenging. You tend to learn about the development of a printed circuit board (PCB), how these are designed and put together, and the different software that is available to you to design and have a PCB produced.

The challenge with the older Gold Wing (GW) world and EFI - even with the older GW FI models be it fuel only, ignition only, or the full monty is that there is limited information, data and access to the engine programming software. The engine tune and programming is on an EPROM - erasable programmable read-only memory. This was state of the art back in the day. Needed to do the programming then load it onto this chip. Remember doing this in college, but not since. The equipment to do this is probably found in the Smithsonian.

I have mentioned that I have been corresponding with a fellow in the UK who has reversed engineered the ECU code, but what is missing is the programming software that produced this data. There is no software available that allows us to view the algorithms that use the data that has been found. The Speeduino Project ECU code (not promoting the Speeduino Project too much I hope) uses the C+ programming language(s) and the Arduino IDE programming software (other apps can be used such as notepad), to allow us to view, modify if you wish, the program.

The features available for engine tuning in these inexpensive aftermarket ECUs (some are very expensive) are quite extensive and can provide an engine tune that can be as good as the OEM EFI install, depending on the complexity. The only limitation is how much time and effort do you want to spend bringing your EFI install to fruition. OEMs are notorious for changing its engine performance and fuel efficiency, and this continually keeps its OEM systems at the forefront of the EFI world. OEMs have bigger budgets and toys (aka tools) to play with, unlike us mere mortals.

Enough of the pontification post. 'Till next time, Cheers.

 

[Rednaxs60]

Started a new thread on GW Docs. Going to bring the posts over to here and I am taking my time and posting in a chronological order. There is a lot to be considered with EFI.

 

[Rednaxs60]

Good Morning Dan. Nice to see you're still kicking. Trust all is well with you and yours.


Concepts and specifics, see this is EFI posts quite often. There are no formal courses for a person to get accreditation or certified as an EFI engine tuner. It appears that this is the school of hard knocks. I have found that most of the people that want your hard-earned dollars are self-taught, or have "apprenticed" under a self-made tuner. Most tuners have been involved in the racing, high performance car industry. Not a lot of requirement for the average Joe who wants to have a daily driver. I still see young persons (PC or what) doing small changes to their vehicles to make the vehicle theirs.

My neighbour up the street who has a tricked-out Mustang knows the cost of tuning the car’s engine when interesting, cool changes are done. I know there are younger people who do this, but would think these people are the exception.

Did I mention I will be getting a different Speeduino compatible ECU and using the one I have for other projects. I have decided that I have gone over the precipice and there is no going back to an OEM install. What is needed are good wiring schematics and component description/data for the next owner. This won't be for a while because I want/need to have a retirement project and my GW fits the bill, and hopefully, the work I do will benefit the community.

Enough for this morning. Project is progressing.

Cheers

 

[Rednaxs60]

As mentioned I have another thread that I have started on the GW Doc forum.

I will forge forward and discuss this topic from three viewpoints, fuel only, ignition only, and the "full monty" - fuel and ignition.

Thought some more on this topic. I'm new at EFI ECU engine tuning. There are quite a few YouTube video series on the Speeduino Project ECU, what it is, set-up, inputting the various parameters/settings in the Tuner Studio software for a new project, initial calibration of the VE (fuel), spark (ignition timing), and AFR tables, first engine start, tuning to fruition, the list goes on. There are on-line articles that discuss an EFI install or upgrade that are very useful. Found a new set of videos today that require a considerable amount of viewing time and I'm certain there will be benefit in watching these. The amount of information and guidance in the various forums is requisite reading as well.

Having mentioned the above, why would I want to discuss this topic on the various forums. The world of EFI engine tuning is the school of hard knocks. There is no accredited college/university program available for a person to take and become an accredited EFI engine tuner. There are on-line programs available that can provide the guidance and information necessary to get your project going and bring it to fruition. The facilitators of these webinars, on-line programs also went to the school of hard knocks. These people stuck with the program, saw benefit in learning the trade, and are now the "experts" in this field. You must remember that most of these people have the required equipment at their disposal, or access to, to do an engine tune with a new ECU. If you are not quite so fortunate, a project of this magnitude will be more challenging.

The school of hard knocks, an unforgiving school that must be attended by all who chose to do an EFI conversion or upgrade project. This is where I am. Attending this school has one thinking what is the best practice considering that what works for one person may not work for another, but both are striving to get to the end result, a successful EFI install/modification. There can be conflicting thoughts on just what to when.

My threads on the 1985 GW CFI ECU upgrade/replacement project is my story of the school of hard knocks. I have made incorrect observations and decisions based on what I have read and tried to decipher, I have made some good decisions as well.

Your background, skill set and tool set will determine what the difficulty factor will be for your project, let's not forget the budget. A well defined project plan will assist as well.

Everything I post will be for information only. Should you try some of the information, I will not be responsible for any damage to your engine or EFI system. I am going to attempt to keep the information to concepts and theory, and how the various components and tuning software parameters interact.

Cheers

 

[Rednaxs60]

Electronic Fuel Injection - conversion, upgrade, partial install - ignition or fuel. Daunting project to be sure. Is this a "black" art, or a learned skill set that anyone can acquire.

We question our abilities when it comes to such a project. I know I did with the CFI ECU upgrade/replacement project. Thought I knew a lot considering I had been working on and delving into the Honda CFI system of my '85 GW 1200 Limited Edition for some 4 years before I considered the project. Thought I had learned a lot, but I had only scratched the surface.

EFI is a "black" art from the standpoint that there is very little wrote about it when it comes to an older Gold Wing. Most installs that have come to fruition, and there are not that many reported, are completed through experimentation and hopefully, some help from the forum collectives.

Going the "full monty", fuel and ignition is a significant endeavour. Wiring considerations, component selection, manufacturing parts for the install, space availability, and the likes can make one's mind spin in so many directions.

When considering all this, what is the best bang for our dollar? Putting the older GW EFI models aside for a minute, whole different kettle of fish, let's think about the carbureted 1200 and even the older GWs.

This is a discussion topic that I have found on-line. The "full monty" is by far the most expensive, time consuming EFI install. Don't believe many will disagree. This then becomes a question of whether to do an EFI fuel only install, or an EFI ignition only install.

From what I have read, the EFI ignition only install is the winner. Why is this?

Carbureted engine systems have stood the test of time. Maintaining the OEM original carbureted design has provided us with an engine system that is relatively bulletproof and keeps on "ticking". This system allows us to tinker and do upgrades such as a carburetor upgrade or changing the original carburetor fuel jetting, a new "wonky" cam with different lift characteristics - always fun, and we have a fair to good understanding of what we are doing and what we expect.

The OEM has installed a system that provides engine operation and performance with an air-fuel ratio (AFR) at idle of approximately 14.7ish - probably a bit less, and anywhere between say 13.0 and 14.7 AFR up to wide open throttle (WOT)/full power. Works pretty well all round, but there is nothing you can do to improve the engine operation. The carbureted systems do not care what the engine coolant and air temperature are, whether you ride your bike at altitude or not, or what the engine manifold absolute pressure (MAP) is. An EFI system, fuel, ignition or both, does.

Let's consider changing the ignition to electronic EFI style. The 1200 carbureted GWs have an ignition control module (ICU) that is old, and may be subject to failures as we go forward, and because of this I would submit that a look at a new ICU based on a new aftermarket ECU should be considered.

There have been aftermarket ignition control modules that were designed for the older non-EFI GWs, but the availability appears to be lessening. These units use electronics to do what the distributor points and condenser provided. The ability to further tune the ignition profile for the engine is not available to you.

The design of the EFI ignition system is not for this post or thread, but what components are required is. The components that are readily available and extra to what is already installed in the engine are:

EFI ECU
Crankshaft trigger wheel
Coil Driver(s) - spark units
Inet air temperature (IAT) sensor
Manifold absolute pressure (MAP) sensor

OEM installed components:

Engine coolant temperature (CLT) sensor

Recommended components:

Wide band oxygen sensor (WBO2)

Hopefully I have mentioned the basic requirements. This post is getting a bit long in the tooth. Time to cut and run. More to follow on the EFI ignition only issue.

 

[Rednaxs60]

Keeping these older GWs on the road is the reason for this thread. Lots of “barn” finds being reported and discussed on the various forums that may be in need of some innovative solutions to get these “barn” finds, and keep them on the road.

Back to the topic at hand, EFI ignition only install.

Location of the various components required will be discussed where possible.

Wiring requirements will be dictated by the location of the components being used. You will need a 12 VDC and ground for the EFI ECU being used. The grounding and 5 VDC signal for the various components will come from the EFI ECU.

The “brains” of this upgrade is the ECU. I will be focused on the Speeduino Project ECU because that is what I am familiar with and using for my ECU upgrade/replacement project.

There are a lot of aftermarket ECUs available to choose from depending on your project requirements, budget and timeline. I will be focused on the Speeduino Project family of ECUs, actual and clone(s). I am a fan of the Speeduino Project ECUs, open source, can modify the source code, develop your own interface board, add extra features and such. The only hold back is your imagination.

Installation space is always a consideration, and in the past has been a determining factor. The new crop of Speeduino and Speeduino compatible ECUs have made this concern almost a distant memory.

There are Speeduino compatible ECUs that are almost the size of deck of cards. The C2C – Compact 2 Channel, from DIY-EFI is an example of this. The Spark Gap X4 from openlogicefi is another small unit approximately 3” by 4” by 1 ½” in height. The Oscelot ECU from WMTronics has the Arduino Mega 2560 microprocessor integrated into the interface board reducing the ECU size. These mentioned ECUs are full features ECUs and can operate a GW in wasted spark and paired fuel injector configurations. The ECUs that are of the 4-channel variety allow you to future proof your install. There are other Speeduino compatible interface boards/ECUs available. Have a browse of the Speeduino forum, and on-line to look for others. Your location can be a determining factor in what Speeduino ECU you choose.

 

[Rednaxs60]

Once you decide on the ECU, you will need to get the Speeduino compatible engine tuning software. This is Tuner Studio, and MegaLogViewer, and get the license for each - unlocks additional needed tuning and diagnostics.

If you do not want to commit to an EFI project, you can do a bench test project to determine if an EFI project is what you want.

There are no plug and play EFI ECU units for the older Gold Wings and because of this, you will need to start from the beginning.

The EFI components needed for a fuel only EFI install were mentioned in a previous post.

Crankshaft trigger wheel - as the name implies, this is installed on the crankshaft. The ECU uses the signal generated by the crankshaft trigger wheel. The accepted placement is sandwiched between the crankshaft timing belt pulleys and is generally a 36-1 missing tooth trigger wheel. You will have to "key" the trigger wheel to the shaft.

I initially wanted to use the Speeduino ECU dual wheel operating mode (trigger pattern). This is where there is a crankshaft and camshaft signal to the ECU. Had an issue getting "full sync" with the OEM installation. I did some testing and found that the issue with the OEM system was that the VR sensor used for the camshaft signal did not provide a reliable signal auto the ECU at low engine RPMs. This was reported by "socrace" on the NGW forum. - switching to a Hall Effect sensor solved his problem. The VR crankshaft sensor was suitable for the installation with the crankshaft RPM being higher than the camshaft RPM at idle. This prompted me to revert to a missing tooth trigger pattern with a 36-1 crankshaft trigger wheel installed. This solved the issue of "sync" loss and allowed me to progress the new ECU installation, but I still intended to explore the dual wheel trigger pattern with the OEM 8 tooth crankshaft trigger wheel and a single camshaft sensor and OEM camshaft trigger wheel.

You will need to install the crankshaft trigger wheel sensor, recommend using a Hall Effect sensor instead of a variable reluctance (VR) sensor. The ECU needs a digital signal from the crankshaft sensor to process the signal. The Hall Effect sensor is three wire sensor that outputs a digital square wave signal. This sensor requires a 5VDC power supply that comes from a terminal on the ECU interface board, and a ground from the ECU interface board.

The VR sensor is a two-wire sensor that outputs sine wave that needs to be converted to a digital square wave signal. This is done through the use of a VR conditioner that plugs into the interface board.

The ECU interface board will have "jumpers" that allow you to select either a VR sensor or Hall Effect sensor. If you install and select the Hall Effect sensor, you will only connect one wire from the sensor to the "VR2+" terminal. You will not need to connect any wire to the "VR2-" terminal.

If you select the "VR" jumper position, you will have to connect the positive wire from the crankshaft sensor to the "VR1+" terminal and the second wire to the "VR1-" terminal.

Some ECU interface boards will recommend a "pull" up resistor when using a Hall Effect sensor; however. my research indicates that this "pull" up resistor is already installed on most Speeduino and Speeduino compatible interface boards.

The install requires new coil drivers. The 1200 carbureted GWs do not have these even though these GWS use an ICU.

There are a multitude of coil drivers available for use. I am using the Bosch 211 four channel coil driver. Compact unit compared to the coil (spark unit) drivers used in the '85/'86 CFI systems. You will need to use two of the coil driver circuits. This coil driver will future proof your install in that should you progress and install the EFI fuel component and are adventurous enough to configure your install for sequential ignition, you will have enough coil circuits for four separate coils.

Older, carbureted GWs have a vacuum port or ports available to connect a MAP sensor for the ECU to use. It is recommended to use all the vacuum ports available. If more than one, consider routing the vacuum lines into a vacuum block then connect one vacuum hose to the ECU for use.

Most aftermarket new ECUs available for use generally have a MAP sensor installed on the ECU interface board. A common on-board MAP sensor is the MPX4250. Should you prefer to use a remote MAP sensor, and there is an on-board MAP sensor, you may have to modify the on-board sensor to allow for the use of the remote MAP sensor, and switch the "jumper" that selects on-board Map or Baro. Most ECU tuning software will have a drop-down list of acceptable MAP sensors and the specification(s) for these sensors will already be in the engine tuning software. Recommend using the on-board MAP if installed. A barometric sensor is convenient depending on your riding area. Not the end of the world if one is not installed initially - can be added later as a follow-on project.

You may be able to utilize the OEM CLT sensor, but you will have to test this sensor to determine the operation specifics. If not, there are a lot of CLT sensors available to use. This is the same for the IAT sensor.

The IAT sensor location must be determined, the IAT sensor for the ‘85/’86 GW FI models is located in the air filter cover, a good place for a new installation.

Installation of a wide band oxygen (WBO2) sensor is recommended. This sensor can be a stand-alone sensor, not connected to the ECU, or integrated into the ECU. This sensor provides a visual indication of what the air-fuel ratio (AFR) is for any given RPM-MAP reading. Advancing the engine timing will help lean out the air-fuel mixture, retarding the engine timing will help richen the air-fuel mixture. Without this visual confirmation of the AFR, you will be tuning by the seat of your pants, and takes more time.

The choice of a WBO2 sensor is a matter of choice and budget. Innovate and 14point7 are good, reliable choices. If you do not intend to continue to an EFI fuel and ignition installation, a less expensive unit may be in order. Whatever your choice, make sure the controller is included with the O2 sensor, generally a matched set.

EFI conversion components can be from a multitude of sources. Used components that are widely used such as the Bosch 211 coil driver (don’t always need to use new) can be found at an auto wrecking yard. Most new components can be found on eBay.

 

[Rednaxs60]

I submit that the last post answered my question and premise regarding a replacement ICU for the 1200 GWs: https://classicgoldwings.com/thread...r-the-gl1200-non-fi-models.15450/#post-231257

 

[Rednaxs60]

Engine timing is next to be considered. Owners of older GWs do not have to spend a lot of time on this.

There are two timing issues, alignment of the crank and camshafts using the “T1” indication on the crankshaft, an idle timing using “F1” indication on the crankshaft. Idle timing is approximately 10 degrees BTDC. This is known only from information in the OEM service manual.

There have been owners who have used a timing degree wheel to further refine the GW engine timing. Worthwhile endeavour; however, not much latitude in changing the OEM engine timing. This is a static engine timing that requires a road trial to confirm the expected result.

I discussed the components required for an EFI ignition only install in my last post. Installation of these components and utilizing a new aftermarket ECU will provide all non-EFI GW owners the ability to better tune their older GWs.

I mention this because the GW engine timing is a significant compromise that allows the owner to expect a fairly good engine operation/performance and motorcycle ride quality. You must remember that the design and setup of the engine timing at the factory for normal street use is done with better diagnostic tools than are available to the general public. The OEM also errs on the side of caution in that the design is such that the engine will operate in a “rich” fuel condition so as to safeguard the engine and take into account the use/abuse that owners will inflict on the engine.

The OEM has designed and produced a very good motorcycle engine, but there are significant shortcomings when it comes to engine operation and performance. To enhance the engine operation, owners start to experiment with carburetor jetting, maybe tweak the engine timing a bit, but in the short and long term, changing the basic engine operation and performance to a new level is not going to happen.

Installing an EFI ignition only system gives the owner a host of possibilities to enhance the operation and performance of the GW engine.

The ignition timing (spark) map is a 16 by 16 matrix that you now have control over. You can “dial” in a specific operating RPM/MAP scenario. Advance or retard the engine timing for best air-fuel ratios.

Owners often ask about carburetor jetting on the various forums. With an installed WBO2 sensor, and the new EFI ignition only system, you will be able to better determine what carburetor jetting changes can be made, larger jets for more fuel, or smaller for less. The tuning software will allow you to log engine parameters and from this, adjust your engine tune as required reducing the “seat of the pants” tuning scenario.

There are no aftermarket performance enhancing parts available for these older GW engines. I have read quite a few forum threads on changing the engine heads from 1000 heads to 1200 heads, 1100 to 1200 heads, or even changing out 1200 heads for the 1100/1000 heads.

This is all well and good; however, the impact of this decision without the ability to compensate for the change can be interesting. Changing the camshaft(s) alters valve opening and closing. Valves may be larger or smaller changing the engine manifold pressure. Carburetor calibration can also change. The engine exhaust system is calibrated for the original engine configuration, may change with these new changes.

This is where the new install of the EFI ignition only install can be extremely beneficial and outshines the Honda OEM distributor style system, or the 1200 ICU ignition system. Most car enthusiasts that modify – “trick out” their car engines with new “wonky” cams and such have to have their engine systems tuned for the new parts. Changing the OEM cam on a car engine for a high-performance cam may result in the engine not starting. Happens all the time, the change, result, consequence scenario. These GW engines are no different.

With the installation of the EFI ignition only system and WBO2 sensor, you will be able to recalibrate the engine operating parameters to better utilize the engine changes that have been done, and achieve the desired results. Carburetor jetting and the ignition timing table may need to be tweaked to incorporate the new changes to achieve the best air-fuel mixture. Timing can be changed a point or two to “richen” or “lean” out the air-fuel mixture, being careful to stay away from the engine “knock” zone.

The take away from this information and previous posts is that changing the distributor points/condenser arrangement to an electronic points/condenser arrangement is a good upgrade, but the basic engine design parameters have not changed and cannot be changed. The same with the 1200 ICU units. A significant upgrade from the distributor style ignition, but you are still confined to the OEM design criteria should something go awry. There is no replacement for the 1200 GW ICU.

All good so far.

 

[Rednaxs60]

Thinking a disclaimer is needed about now. This post is not a how to, but a what is possible for the owners of older GWs. I have read quite a few forum threads where the owner(s) or new owner(s) feel that there is no hope of resurrecting these older GWs. This results in the selling of the motorcycle, parting it out, or scrapping it.

Buying and owning an older GW is not inexpensive, there are limited or no mechanics available to work/maintain your GW. You are your best mechanic.

It's like the movie "The Martian". At the end he is telling the new class of recruits that when things go south and you want to come home, you prioritize the issue(s), and tackle these one at a time and if enough issues are corrected, you will come home. These older GWs are exactly the same.

My '85 1200 FI model is quite often a PITA - some issues are self-inflicted; however, I like the bike, enjoy riding it, and using it for a retirement project.

Cheers

 

[Rednaxs60]

A new thread has started on the GW Docs forum regarding GW 1200 pulse generator. The thread owner suspects that the PG sensors on his ’86 Aspencade are failing. It is mentioned that these PG sensors are no longer available so an alternative must be found. GL1500 PG sensor(s) can be used, but the 1200 PG sensor mounts will need modification to have the GL1500 PG sensors. Know this because there was one installed on my ’85 FI model when I purchased it. An example of parts availability and what owners are thinking: https://goldwingdocs.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=72990&p=429310#p429310

Good reason to consider modernizing your motorcycle engines ignition system.

Back to the topic at hand.

Engine timing, Engine timing, Engine timing! Can’t be any more explicit.

This is something that older GW owners do not have to pay a lot of attention to, but will be required if you embark on an EFI ignition only installation, or an EFI fuel/ignition (full monty) installation.

The first issue is a timing light. It does not have to be expensive; I use a $35.00 special off Amazon. I do have an older Snap-On timing light with a degree advance dial. If you have an older timing with an advance dial and it is not rated for wasted spark, set the advance dial to “0” degrees and leave it there, do not use this dial. If you use the timing advance dial, it will complicate timing the engine.

Another mod I have done to my ’85 FI model to use the timing light is that I have put an engine timing indicator in the timing belt area, and marked the crankshaft trigger wheel with #1 TDC (T1 crank indication) and idle timing (F1 crank indication). Using the engine timing port that is generally covered in oil making it hard to view the crankshaft timing marks, and the need for a special tool to allow viewing of the crankshaft marks is a not fun.

Setup of the ignition trigger angle for initial engine timing prior to engine first start is documented in the Speeduino Wiki: https://wiki.speeduino.com/en/home The details of how to do this is well documented in the Speeduino forum. The initial trigger angle is a staring point. There will/may be a requirement to adjust the ignition trigger angle. Knowing where #1 TDC is when setting this trigger angle will assist you.

It is expected that a 36-1 crankshaft trigger wheel will be used at the onset of an EFI ignition only install. It is a trigger wheel of choice and fits well between the crankshaft timing belt pulleys. Should you want to install a camshaft sensor, you can keep the missing tooth trigger wheel installed.

Installation of a camshaft sensor with an EFI ignition only install is very beneficial. Using a crankshaft sensor without a camshaft sensor will work, but engine phasing will be a guesstimate. A camshaft sensor will give the ECU additional information and engine phasing will be as accurate as possible.

These new aftermarket ECUs relay on input signals to do the job. The more information provided is beneficial to the engine tune.

This EFI ignition only install will require you to calibrate/populate the ignition timing (spark) table. There are examples of a basic spark table in the forums. A “wedge” table is widely used at the onset of this type of project. This Speeduino forum thread provides a good description of an ignition timing “wedge” table and how to produce one for initial engine timing: https://speeduino.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=26832#p26832

The objective with this “wedge” table is to get the engine started and then calibrate the table for actual engine operation.

Cheers

 

[Rednaxs60]

EFI ignition only components installed and engine initial timing has been done. Time for first start.

All things being equal, the engine will probably start first time, much to your amazement, it will probably stall as well. Jack up the engine idle screw and get the engine operating with a 1500 to 2000 engine RPM – then reduce the RPM to idle speed of approximately 1000 RPM. If the engine stats to falter, increase engine RPM until the engine operation smooths out and adjust engine timing. Repeat this procedure until you have a stable idle RPM.

You have installed a MAP sensor. Use this sensor in conjunction with the WBO2 sensor to achieve a smooth base idle.

Since fuel is already set, can’t change carburetor fuelling at this stage, you will have to rely on the MAP and WBO2 sensors, and adjust the engine timing to improve engine operation. I submit that you will be able to get the idle timing to about 10 to 12 degrees BTDC with an idle of approximately 1000 RPM. I have mentioned in other posts that you can use ignition timing to lean out the air-fuel mixture – advancing ignition timing, or richen the air-fuel mixture – retarding ignition timing. Do this in small increments so as not to invoke engine knock from too much ignition timing advance.

I have mentioned that an EFI ignition only installation is the best bang for your dollar if you are not inclined to do a complete EFI fuel/ignition installation. This is the sentiment of many “experts” out in the real world; however, in conjunction with this is the need to control the fuel going into the engine.

You may notice that your engine is operating in a fuel rich or fuel lean condition no matter what changes you make to your ignition timing (spark) table, at idle and when riding. This may require you to consider changing the carburetor jetting. Smaller carburetor jet(s) for a leaner air-fuel mixture, larger carburetor jet(s) for a richer air-fuel mixture.

Upgrading the OEM system to a modern EFI type application, partial or full, can be insightful. How the engine was operating from the factory and what you are now able to see, may come as a surprise.

Installing an EFI ignition only, or fuel only, or a complete EFI system will require a mindset change. Honda spent countless hours and money developing the Gold Wing and the Gold Wing engine design. Most of us do not have access to the equipment used to produce a road ready Gold Wing. Recommend using the OEM information as a guide, not a definitive requirement.

You are at a point in the EFI ignition only install that requires you to do road trials to dial in the new ignition timing (spark) table. Determine a tuning plan and execute your tuning plan.

Good luck.

 

[Rednaxs60]

Going to review what I have posted in the last few and make sure I have not made any glaring errors. Once I do this will chart the next batch of postings.

 

[Rednaxs60]

I’ve reviewed my posts to date. It would appear that I’m staying on track, chronologically and staying on topic.

The EFI ignition only installation is the best bang for your dollar to start, and the easiest to install.

The next step is to add fuel to the mix.

A good number of EFI components have been discussed in the EFI ignition only installation. This next part of the EFI journey will focus on the remaining components to convert your engine operating system to a complete EFI installation.

I will be discussing what is required, what may be available, and where you may do your shopping will continue to be the focus of this thread.

The components installed during the EFI ignition only installation is approximately 85 percent or so of the EFI components required.

The new components that are needed are:

Throttle position sensor (TPS)
Idle air combustion (IAC) motor and piping/hoses
Fuel injectors.
High pressure fuel system comprised of:
High pressure fuel pump
Fuel system filter(s)
Fuel system supply rails
Fuel injector holders
Fuel pump shutoff sensor

There will be additional wiring requirements.

This continuation of an EFI installation will require a definition plan. You need to determine what the end goal is and how you are going to get there. I mention this because this will determine what extra components you may want to include such as a camshaft sensor that allows for sequential fuel and ignition. You may have included a camshaft sensor in the EFI ignition only install, another piece of the EFI pie taken care of.

What type of fuel injection are you going to use? Individual throttle bodies, single point fuel injection, port (point) fuel injection, multi-port (point) fuel injection (MPFI). An upgrade/modification to MPFI is sequential port fuel injection (SPFI) or timed fuel injection.

There is direct fuel injection but that is outside the scope of the EFI installation being discussed here.

Each type of fuel injection has pros and cons. An EFI fuel installation can be based on a myriad of criteria. The budget, space availability, part availability, skill set, your determination to bring the project to fruition are some that come to mind. I submit that the most significant issue that determines if the EFI fuel installation comes to fruition is the amount of time needed to complete the EFI fuel installation. It can be disheartening to do so much work and not be seen to be progressing the project so you can see the light at the end of the tunnel.

The takeaway here is to not underestimate the amount of time required, and the hurdles you will have to overcome.

I have mentioned that you can do a project bench test, an accepted approach to start such a project; however, I do get the impression that when this process is used to start an EFI project, the commitment factor is not there and the project may not proceed to the next level of the project – just an observation. A project bench test is a good way ahead, especially if you only want to dip your toes in the water, and not do an install.

Another consideration is that a carb to EFI conversion will take the bike out of commission for however long it takes. Reverting back to carbs may also not be possible, happens.

My OEM CFI ECU upgrade/replacement project started in 2019 with information gathering, determining the project definition, determining what aftermarket ECU would be used, purchasing components, and most important – reading/viewing a lot of information regarding EFI installs and what I needed to learn. I started the EFI conversion in 2022, and now 2 years later I’m still working on the project bringing it to fruition.

To take the sting out of this project and the length of time involved, I have a Can Am Spyder to use. Can’t let a project like this determine my riding enjoyment. Takeaway is that a second bike is a good consideration.

Enough theorizing.

 

[Rednaxs60]

Fuel Injectors – there are two types available, high impedance (high-z) and low impedance (low-z). Both work well. There are a number of on-line articles detailing the specifics of each, saturated, peak and hold and such that you can research.

The issue with fuel injectors is the amount of current that the EFI fuel injectors can be subjected to.

Low-z fuel injectors are generally in the 3.0 Ohm range, high-z fuel injectors in the 9-10 Ohm and above range. Using Ohms law, low-z fuel injectors will have an amp range of approximately 4 amps, high-z fuel injectors approximately 1-2 amps. This is a significant difference for a digital circuit.

Most aftermarket ECU fuel injector circuits can use a 1-2 amp current without damaging the fuel injector circuit, nut not a 4-amp current.

To use low-z fuel injectors with aftermarket ECUs, Honda does this as well with its ‘85/’86 1200 FI models, a resistor pack is used in series with the low-z fuel injectors to limit circuit current. Honda uses a 3 Ohm resistor in series for two low-z fuel injectors. A 6-ohm resistor is needed if you are going to use a low-z fuel injector by itself. There is no requirement for a resistor pack if using high-z fuel injectors.

Note - First parts update: resistor pack for use with low-z fuel injectors.

The flow rate of the chosen fuel injectors, high or low impedance, for a 1000/1100/1200 GW can be in the range of 300 cc/min. This flow rate is determined by bench testing the fuel injectors at approximately 43 PSI (3 bar). Used fuel injectors should be sent to a service centre for servicing.

The benefit of using an aftermarket ECU that you have the ability to adjust/recalibrate the engine tune is that you can use just about any reasonably sized fuel injector to achieve a good engine tune. Consideration regarding the size of the fuel injectors is such that you do not want to use a fuel injector that is too small such that you run out of fuel at higher powers/WOT. You do not want fuel injector(s) that are too large such that you cannot control the amount of fuel adequately at low powers/idle.

You will want a set of fuel injectors that are relatively close in flow rates. You will want to use a service centre that can produce fuel injector data that will be required for the settings in the tuning software.

Caveat – the service centre cleaning, flow testing and data collection may vary between service centres. I had a set of ‘85/’86 1200 FI fuel injectors serviced at two different places. One service centre indicated a flow rate of 285 cc/min, the other 315 cc/min. The service centre that rated the fuel injector(s) at 315 cc/min also provided fuel injector data. This data helped in populating the engine tuning software program. The difference in the fuel injector flow data for the OEM fuel injectors is not an issue. The benefit of an aftermarket ECU that allows you to calibrate/adjust the engine tune is that these small differences can be accommodated in the engine tune. In this instance, I know that the OEM fuel injectors are capable of operating at WOT without running out of fuel, and provide good performance at the lower power range(s) and idle.

Would recommend using a service centre’s fuel injection data as a starting point, but realizing that you may have to tweak the fuel injector characteristics as you develop the engine tune.

If you are buying new fuel injectors, make sure the supplier provides the fuel injector data required, if not, look elsewhere. If your fuel injector(s) of choice do not have any fuel injector data, there are accepted values for a generic fuel injector that you can use, then experiment with the fuel injector settings to “dial” in the fuel injector(s).

Having a set of “balanced” fuel injectors is discussed on the various forums and on-line articles. This is a consideration and for a race and performance application, probably a very good requirement; however, for a street application probably not a high priority issue considering the expense and how these would be installed.

The ECU of choice can assist in this “balancing” off fuel injectors. The Speeduino ECU that I am using has the capability to utilize individual cylinder fuel trim (ICFT). This feature is part of the tuning software.

This is the ability to tweak each fuel injector (maximum of four fuel injectors) for a specific engine load and RPM range(s) to “balance” the fuel injectors. This will probably be in the lower power range(s) because as the engine power increases there is less time for the fuel injectors to cycle and fuelling between cylinders will be less of an issue.

ICFT is an advanced tuning tool and if wanted, can be used after you have “dialed” in the VE and spark tables, and a variety of other engine tuning features.