Beating Heart of the Shop (compressor)

[joedrum]

I guess it’s just a play on words Dave ..wild leg witch was always the way it was presented by farmers ..who in reality never said in history probably the smartest people in America but always held own dealing with a communist market for there goods and criminal bankers of the system to break them ...many know that farmers had made hit and miss generators and flywheels that actually proved you could make your own electricity cheaper on site than provided by off site power lines and power companies ...system as it was and bankers created a huge co op system witch they funded it mostly to provide power lines to rural areas and uneducate the farmers ..that other farmers were beating the power grid cost wise big time ...they practically gave power away loss money big time to kill this knowledge off ...well it doesn’t all die off ...Hell they distorted so many generators from that time ...Hell all power is generated and all math proves the smaller the system the cheaper it is to produce ....so forgive me about info on Wikipedia or anything else ...most of it ******** to promote how things are not how it really is ...to this day 2019 and all the tech and info out there ..the generators today are made to be totally inefficient where a motor runs all the time weather it’s producing or not ...farmers made generatorsca 100 yrs ago in there barns that beat anything out there now to buy period ...another great example is the made to fail miserably wind power where they make towers and props to completely get destroyed in high winds and because of mass even steel to last long in perfect conditions ...people that actually know how to do things don’t need plans ..they have smart hands that can make anything they want to ..having the raw material to do so ...we live in a country that works overtime to keep that from happening....there is nothing more talented than smart hands ...only time there is when laws are passed to keep smart hands excluded...that the deception they call higher education ...to be honest I’ve never met a paper engineer or what ever I couldn’t best and I’ve ran into many of them in my past ....

Thanks Dave for the info on the welder I’m in need of one with a project

 

[desertrefugee]

I guess that pretty much says it all. I'm pitching my degrees in the trash.

 

[DaveKamp]

DON'T pitch your degrees in the trash!!! Send 'em up here.

Weather Underground says you got 58, heading for 66 today, when we here got 13, and today's thermometer won't see 22!!! :head bang:

 

[desertrefugee]

:nea:

 

[dan filipi]

desertrefugee » Today, 9:17 am[/url]":2zn8sclm]
I guess that pretty much says it all. I'm pitching my degrees in the trash.

:smilie_happy:

 

[joedrum]

Well I’m not being to overkill here ... when I got into farming I was was really just floored by all the knowledge these farmers had ...and I had done a lot of things in life already ..mostly not papered but highly skilled and totally dangerous ...feared not much ...i talked to an old farmer and in one afternoon I learned how to grow things dam near flawlessly ...the knowledge these guys had on how to do things in the middle of nowhere close to anything was amazing ...a hit and miss motor and the proper flywheel is the most efficient energy producing thing I’ve ever seen in my entire life ...motor all hand made and basically produce power light use and hard use all at the most efficient way to do so ...great education ...and I took it all in as I could .. the art of self determination is a great skill ....not trying to belittle anyone really at all ..just very glad one day I decided to try to farm ...I learn quickly I needed to pay attention to the people that had down completely ....and got generations of knowledge from some .. I learned that people who dressed like they drove a train were some smart people period

Did I mention reliable too ...like hadn’t started in 25 yrs and started right up ...

 

[DaveKamp]

joedrum » 33 minutes ago[/url]":ct1vd14c]
I learned that people who dressed like they drove a train were some smart people period

Clothes don't make a man- they simply protect the skin. If it's a business suit, it's there hide skin from the eyes. If it's a pair of Key Imperial coveralls, it's there to hide the skin from hay, grease, manure, steam, and pig noses.

When my son was 12, I took him to Forest City, Iowa to attend the Steam Boiler Operator's class. While my license was still current, It'd been 15 years since I'd been through one, and he was old enough... so I took him (even though his mother wasn't thrilled). He already had the Oshkosh coveralls, boots, cotton gloves with leather covers, and I bought him a pinstripe denim engineer's hat.

He got two days of intense education in phase change, structural thermodynamics, fasteners, and above all, design safety, intrinsic safety, safety mechanisms, safety mechanism calculation and testing, and finally, the application of practical safety.

I sent his mother a video of him with soot on his cheek, wearing that pinstriped denim hat covered in steam oil, lumbering down the lane at the throttle and reverser of a 25-ton Avery steam traction engine.

I've got two engines in my collection you'd enjoy, Joe- One is a Fairbanks-Morse ZC-118, the other is a ZC-208 (larger brother). I don't have a 346, 503, or 739, but mebbie one of these days I'll find them. Efficient? Probably not. Reliable? Only if it's always running, inside a building, and watched with extreme regularity. Durable? Certainly... Simple? barely enough parts to run, and nothing more. It would NOT suffice, though, for enough to run power for the farm. If I had a lineshaft in the basement of the dairy barn, I'd consider setting up some of my woodworking machines to use it, but the maintenance required for all that lineshafting, as well as the dust, and the placement limitations would NOT work out well. Nonetheless, I have the engines, and a double-plethora of others, just because I can. If I were to couple them to ANYTHING, I'd have them in a separate building, with a jerk-rod through some underground PEX to a lever-operated mechanical well pump in my basement, and a rope-drive to spin ceiling fans through my machine shops...

How the heck far off topic are we now? Oh yeah... air compressors... a hit-and-miss would run a slow compressor... and that reminds me... i've got a big water-cooled single-cylinder Worthington that the ZC-208 would certainly drive... with four V-belts... but really, I rarely need more air than the Brunner can provide. The Worthington has a 6" piston and a 5" stroke, with a 44" diameter drive sheave, and a liquid cooled cylinder... I suspect it was originally for refrigeration, not air...

(*hmmm... a Goldwing... still in chassis, with a belt around a tireless rear wheel... with propane piped to a common intake, and a remote-start/electronic governance system, driving an 1880's lineshaft system... hmmm....

 

[joedrum]

yah off topic .. let’s hope IR compressor does Darrel good service for his home shop ....

 

[desertrefugee]

Tank had a couple leaks. Stinkin’ big old orings.

Off topic, maybe. Entertaining and enlightening, definitely.

 

[DaveKamp]

"old" o-rings? That looked like a brand-new unit... if so, it should've been tighter than a nun- how did that happen??

 

[desertrefugee]

Not actually old, just poorly installed. One of them just bunched and leaked massively. Another simply didn't seat and required a re- torque of the fitting. Oh, and the bleeder on the bottom of the tank also had a slight leak. Questionable quality control, I suppose. Hopefully, QC just on assembly rather than the manufacturing of the actual components!

I can hear Drum already, "i told you so..."

 

[joedrum]

LOL...Darrel...ok what the deal here is poor parts mixing so to speak ...the whole idea of putting a 2/3 to small compressor unit on a tank is just pure mismatch ..to the point of no way the compressor unit will last if pushed any at all ...the size of the tank itself just filling up is to much load on the motor and compressor unit ...in this situation a single phase motor unit especially the one that comes with it ..under in continuous use the heat and vibration of this unit is off the chart ..about the only thing HD about them is there looks maybe ...the biggest tank this unit could actually use would be a 40 gallon tank and even that would be stretching it ...if you look at construction compressors that can run multiple nail guns like nailing off roof plywood or building walls there compressor units are as big and most bigger than this IR unit has and there tanks are way smaller so there quick recovery and can keep the pressure up ...meaning size right to be the best they can be in air delivery....

My sons answer to this unit was to buy another in the thinking IR was a quality unit ...truth is cause of heat and vibration all involve in these mismatch units anything that can leak will lol ..even the drain ...I’m rather sure this unit comes from a place where it wasn’t liked ....I had two of these units going into one tank ..tho much better it was still very light duty in my opinion and I considered it a toy ...but we really use air also ..constant work on deal ...

 

[DaveKamp]

There's nothing improperly sized about Darrel's compressor, Joe- it's a 5hp twin-cylinder two stage. While the size of the tank determines how long the compressor's run time will be on initial charge, it has absolutely no relevancy with how it performs in a continuous-duty load test.

A larger tank provides more thermal volume necessary to provide good adiabatic efficiency, and the ability to shed moisture. Obviously, Darrel's locale will NOT be as demanding as yours or mine.

Continuous duty compressor performance is determined by displacement, speed, and airflow demand, against adiabatic efficiency, and the ability of the pump to SURVIVE being run continuously.

As you noted, It doesn't take a large tank to keep up with a large demand, but you cannot roll a large tank out of a pickup truck, and into the front yard of a construction jobsite, and that's why they are.

The concern you pose, is the same concern posed by anyone who's ever taken a consumer-quality compressor, and used it on a large tank, with the expectation that it will, by some miracle, give it the ability to operate a blast cabinet or an 8" air-grinder. Note that those consumer-grade big-box-store compressors are very limited, but seriously overstated. Someone brought me a 'Craftsman' 20-gallon oil-less compressor that said "5hp" on the outside, and the motor was a 3/4hp 3600rpm motor that ran on a 120v/15A circuit.

120v @ 15A = 1800w.

1 horsepower = 746 watts.

1800w / 746 = 2.41 electrical horsepower.

Clearly the compressor's 5hp rating is 200% optomistic, but wait... that's not all...

Of that 2.41hp going in, the MOTOR is only about 75% efficient (it's generating waste heat) so that means the CRANKSHAFT HORSEPOWER (If the motor really WAS capable of 2.41hp) comes to only 1.8hp...

but wait... that's not all:

Of that 1.8hp at the crank, it's driving an oil-less compressor, at a very high crankshaft speed, so it's turning more crankshaft energy into waste heat, than compressed air... it's adiabatic efficiency is about 61%...
[Adiabatic efficiency is also referred to as 'isentropic' efficiency, and Ingersoll Rand has very good documentation on their legacy systems]

so that 2.41hp, you're only getting 1.8*.61 = 1.098.

Now... if you decide you can stand to listen to that oil-less air-thrasher screaming (btw... that noise is power loss...) for long enough to give it a serious test, you'll find out that the pump overheats and melts down internally, because it's so lossy.

To protect against a product meltdown, they purposely size the tank to limit the run time.

But wait... that's not all...

Each time the motor starts, it draws a huge amount of start current for the first few rotations. It gets substantially hotter then, and it takes a certain amount of run time before that extra heat dissipates... and once it shuts down, it takes a while for the core of the motor to cool off. If the motor doesn't have enough time to cool off each time it starts, the temperature of the motor will keep rising. THIS is why industrial motors have a 'starts per hour' rating.

In order to prevent a motor from overheating from excessive starting, the manufacturer of this compressor kit sized the tank, and SET THE SWITCH ON/OFF PRESSURE Setpoints... so it will be just big enough to run the motor long enough to pump up to an acceptable pressure, then shut off, and have time to cool before a restart.

Darrel's compressor was built well enough so that all those corner-cutting factors of 'consumer-grade' crap do not exist.

 

[joedrum]

Dave you don’t think I know all that bull **** ...I’ve used this compressor and can talk on tragic about it no assumptions or anything close ...what your saying against what I said is pure worthless blabber...this is what I mean about people who get there info from a book instead of hands on ...

I’ll do the best I can to try to explain to you how wrong you are ..but I’m rather sure you won’t listen ....ok the compressor is totally mismatched completely ...no different than putting a 4bbl carb on a oldwing bike motor it’s not going to work well ....let’s says the IR compressor kicks off at 120 lbs and kicks back on at 80 ...with a full tank it will run the nail guns shooting all out till the pressure drops 90 lbs ...this could be air sanders or what ever ..used heavy like blast Cabernet ...sanders are great way to judge air ..they absolutely slow down and perform less ... so compressor is down to 80 and kicks on ...sanders are running but slower ...the compressor has a huge volume to fill to make the sanders work better ...it can’t do it ...so you are loosing money cause your not getting the pressure up to run the tool at its best period ...so a to big tank is like anchor thrown out in the water and to make the boat go ...the tank is to big and hurts the tool plain and simple ...if the tank is sized right it will make air pressure increase and continuous flow at it highest level period ...that how the numbers work ..it’s not about getting the compressor in and out of a truck ..it’s about working at its highest air level period ...I hope that plain enough for you ...as posted before this IRcompressor is a total mismatch of parts ..once the tank gets to big it not only has to run the toll it has to keep the tank full ...that’s the problem ..keeping the the tank full at the exspense of lower air delivery ...very math like and all numbers Dave

 

[desertrefugee]

Hey Dan, let’s lock this one down. I showed off my compressor, we talked about them - And some other stuff some other stuff - for a while and let’s leave it there.

If it goes any further, it won’t be compressors and we’ll be off topic again. The good news is that I would have been inventing new four letter words that mankind hasn’t yet figured out how to moderate.

You’re welcome!

 

[joedrum]

Sorry Darrel...I agree let’s lock it up ..as posted earlier I hope it works good in your application ..I certainly don’t want you to get off track on that super bike your creating ...just love it ...