Bottoming out.

[mcgovern61]

I appreciate the effort Joel. I think I am getting the picture. I could rebuild them, but from what I'm seeing the Progressive 416 is probably the best option. $300 isn't that much. I may try just increasing the pressure for now. I am going to do a test to see if when I let all the air out that the bike actually lowers. And if when I add pressure does it actually rise up any. So far I'd say no to both questions. What is suprising is that it does hold air pressure. But if the oil is low then perhaps it doesn't increase enough when compressed. It sounds like an interesting problem. How much force is required to compress the air/oil mixture knowing the relative sizes of the air chamber and the shock tube. Then if the oil is low what are the numbers. Got some cypherin' to do.

Thanks for the help,

Dennis

I'm with you on the test Dennis! I have to pull my rears and add oil to them to see if that works. As a test yesterday, I let some of the air out of my front forks..... :doh: They dropped 1 1/2" with 2 lbs left in them and the front end road smooth as silk over the usual bumps that have been rattleling my radio in the faring. :doh: :doh: I'll tell you, getting old can really be aggravating sometimes!!! I filled the forks to 12 lbs two years ago to test the new seals and for some other reason I cannot remember anymore and never let the air out again!!!! All this time I have been riding with rock hard forks getting my front end jarred around and never thought to let some air out!! :doh: :doh:

I am really feeling like a dummy! :Awe:

The good part though, the fork seals never leaked! :smilie_happy: :smilie_happy:

 

[CapnDenny1]

Bike Bandit also has a "Kit E", which replaces the stock dampers, but supposedly allows you to use your original outer covers and air attachement. The Kit E includes new seals. It's $170, plus the $55 for the "Kit D" springs and you would have new dampers and springs, but it would still look stock, and you could use the existing air hoses. That's still about $100 cheaper than the 416's, but with about the same functionality.

I did some analysis of the shock system with the air in it. The presence of oil doesn't change the initial load. Only adding or removing air pressure will change the initial force needed to move the air spring.

What the level of oil does have a tremendous affect on is the rate of force increase as the spring is compressed. With 50 psi in the shocks my calculation say it will press with a force of 100 lbs. With a 2 inch air gap at the top of the shock this force goes up to 360 lbs at 3 inches of suspension travel. But with 4 inches of air at the top of the shock, at 3 inches of travel the force only goes up to 167 lbs. This is per shock, so the total force would be double this.

So if they are low on oil, or absent oil, they will provide some force, but it won't increase as the shock is compressed, and the result is it will bottom out.

But the shocks should still provide some movement when you increase the pressure when it is just sitting there. The fact that mine doesn't appear to do this tells me that the shocks may not be the problem. Even without oil they should still move.

Take care all,

Dennis

 

[mcgovern61]

Well I dropped the air out of the rear shocks and the bike dropped 2 full inches! Pulled the left shock off and went to drain the oil. Turned it over and only a little spit came out. However, I can hear oil in it! Turn it over again and more dripping oil. So.... like a see-saw, I kept turning it up and down until no more oil came out (took 30 minutes!). Total count.....8.2 oz of some really dirty, smelly, black and yellow oil! Book says 10.5 oz is what should be in there. Try to put oil in and guess what........no can do!!!!!! I was using a syringe and there seems to be pressure on the hole and no oil will go in!!

Figured out that the shock must be compressed to get some oil past the top seal, but I do not have anything to compress it with except....A Goldwing! :smilie_happy: I put the shock back on and the bike on the side stand, filled the syringe and rocked the bike up and down. On the down stroke, it sucks the oil right in! :clapping:

At exactly 10.5 oz, the oil started spitting back at me on the upstroke (it's full!!). Put 45 psi of air in instead of my usual 58 psi and took it for a ride. It was sweeeeeeeeeeeeeet! I grabbed my wife (between the two of us, that is 450 lbs and no I am not giving away the split of pounds!) We rode around the block, up and down bumps on purpose, up and down sidewalk and driveway curbs and no bottoming out! And that is with only doing one shock. The bike only had 23,000 miles on it before the PO blew the engine around 1995. It sat for 12 years before he gave it to me so the springs really did not have a lot of wear IMO. Friday afternoon, I will do the other one.

 

[dan filipi]

Well cool Gerry, we learned something new!

I bet a lot of shocks are low on oil, I know mine will spit a small amount when letting air out, multiply that over the years and mine are probably low too.

 

[AApple]

Imma gonna try this again...hope it works this time... :beg: :beg:
The amount of oil in the chamber will definitely impact the way the actual shock/damper operates. Also, the oil takes up space, which requires less air in the shocks by volume, at the same pressure. As I said before( I think), without the proper amount of oil in the shocks, it won't matter how much air you put in them, they will STILL bottom out, since the dampers are unable to do their job with no oil in them. Consider if you drilled a hole in the bottom of the shocks on your car/truck. The springs are still there to hold the vehicle up, but the dang thing is gonna bounce up/down forever, and bottom out on every little bump/dip, because there is no fluid in the dampers to cushion the oscillations of the springs. Basically, with no oil in the dampers/shocks, it's the same as not having any shocks. The air in them keeps the suspension from bouncing like your car would, tho.

hth....

:beg:

 

[joedrum]

whats that apple im not sure i understand :smilie_happy: :smilie_happy: :mrgreen: :headscratch: :mrgreen:

 

[mcgovern61]

Joel I get it!!! It was because of your earlier post that I tried this and guess what?? You were right! :thanks:

Now, onto a slightly different issue. The '81 parts bike came with a set of rear shocks that were black coil spring type. I removed them because the lower bushing was the wrong size and was damaging the rear on the right side. (Bushing hole too big for the bolts)

I just pulled them out of storage to check them out again and to my surprise, on the shock is stamped "Progressive Suspension"! There is a number on them 1371-245-34D that I cannot match up to anything online. They do not look like the progressive shocks available today, but they are definately progressives! The coil springs go from the bottom all the way up to the top with no cup at the top like the ones available today. I do not think there were for the GL1100 because the bushings are wrong on the bottoms and the top rubber bushing is not as wide as the shank on the bike.

What do you think guys?

 

[CapnDenny1]

Cool beans! I will try the same procedure on mine this weekend. You want to be careful not filling it too full. With no air in the system there is nothing to compress, so the first bump and goodbye seal!

So on the stock shocks the oil also is the oil used in the dampner? The top of the shock is open? That's pretty cool.

Dennis

 

[AApple]

So on the stock shocks the oil also is the oil used in the dampner? The top of the shock is open? That's pretty cool.
Dennis

Yeppers...the oil flows into the four holes at the tops of the dampeners, and is used for shock oil. Turning the dampers upside down will drain the oil, or most of it, out of them. IF you compress them while they are out of the shock chamber, they will spit fluid out pretty much everywhere, if they're full!


Gerry, those may be for an earlier 'Wing, or they may be Hardly shocks...I've heard of folks using the Hardly ones on 'Wings.

 

[dan filipi]

That could be a replacement Progressive spring for that shock?

 

[CapnDenny1]

OK, I ordered the Progressive Kit D from Bike Bandit this morning, along with a pair of new oil seals for the shock. I guess I will try to order the spring compressor tool from Progressive also. I could probably rig something up, but I plan to add the Kit E in the furture so I guess if I use the tool twice it seems cheaper. I'm hoping this will solve my issues. Then next on the list will be the front springs. I'll be sure to post when I get it done.

Take care, and thanks everybody for the help,

Dennis

 

[CapnDenny1]

OK, I think Progressive is full of it. They have 3 different spring compressor tools. The one they are telling me to use is this one. I can see how that would take a spring off a normal shock, but I don't see how that will take it off an air shock?

progressive 1

• CapnDenny1
• Jul 9, 2010

32-5509

This tool is for a Harley Softail, but it is the one in the writeup that Joel posted.

progressive 1

• CapnDenny1
• Jul 9, 2010

32-5507

I emailed Progressive twice and called twice and they tell me it is the 32-5509 tool for the Goldwing. I think that may be right for a GL1800. But not for the GL1100.

Does anybofy see a way to use the 32-5509 tool to compress the stock spring on the GL1100? I don't see how that would work. I talked to a guy in the shop and he said "Oh yeah, that's the one for the GL's." I think he just looked it up in the comuter and wanted to get rid of me.

The so called Harley Softail tool is $75 plus shipping, so I don't want to buy it and not be able to use it.

I guess I can just rig something up myself. But what I would build would look pretty much like the Harley Tool.

Any ideas?

Dennis

 

[AApple]

The first one would work, IF it is long enough to reach from top to bottom of the shocks. In the pic, it doesn't appear to be long enough, so it may not be right for the purpose you need it for.
The second one will definitely work. I remember seeing one like that in the really degraded(image quality-wise) instructions I got with my springs.
Heck...you could always rent it out to the other guys here when they do their springs!

I will add that the springs are VERY stout, and not all that easy to compress enough to get the top fitting back on, so you really need something that will do the job safely. That second tool looks perfect. :yes:

 

[mcgovern61]

I drained the other rear shock and it only had 7.8 oz of oil in it. While I was refilling it with ATF, I made a short video to show how I was able to get the ATF in real easy. I put the bike on the side stand and push up and down on it while feeding oil into the air line hole with a medicine syringe. The oil sucks in on the up stroke while being pushed in by the syringe. When the recommended 10.5 oz is added it spits on the final down strokes. I do not think you can overfill with this method because it will spit right back at you when it is at 10.5 oz. The shock still rises 2" when you add air!

 

[joedrum]

thats good gerry im going to do that :good: k: :mrgreen:

 

[dan filipi]

Hey that's slick Gerry!

So I guess I could do that even without emptying them first since any extra should just spit out right?

 

[Joep]

Cap'n tell them you have harley air shocks on the rear of your goldwing and really send them buzzing.. seems I read a post from a fellow winger who looked at bagger and compared the info with his wing and they were the same shock...

 

[CapnDenny1]

I took the right shock off and turned it uspise down in a can to drain. It drained overnight and there is at most 2-3 oz of pretty clean looking oil. It's not ATF but looks like oil. Maybe if I did this first I wouldn't need the new springs? Too late now.

I also found a place that has the dampers for the stock shocks on sale, so I am awaiting a reply to my purchase request.

You are probably right about it not being a problem with too much oil. As long as you are bottoming out the shock all the way when it spits the oil back out.

I can't wait to get the bike back on the road, and not have to worry about it hitting bottom.

Take care,

Dennis

 

[CapnDenny1]

I finally got Progressive to give me the scoop on the shock tool! Here is his response;

Hello
If you are trying to replace both dampers and need to remove the eye then yes the 32-5507 will be needed. But if just doing a oil seal and o ring change the 32-5508 it the tool that does work and is shown below. but if you are trying to replace both dampers on your units the 32-5507 will be needed in order to remove the eye from the damper.

Thank you.

Justin Barber
Progressive Suspension
Customer Service Lead Tech

Progressive 32-5508

• CapnDenny1
• Jul 13, 2010

That's after 2 phone calls and about 8 emails. So yes, the 32-5507 tool is the one in the picture and will do the job! I must say they had a lot more patience with me than I would have had.

Of course I don't have the $75 to buy one, so I'm goin gto build one myself. The 32-5508 tool is only about $40, but it won't do the job I need to do.

I will post a picture of the tool I build when/if it works.

Dennis

 

[AApple]

This(32-5507) is the tool ya need to completely dis-assemble the shocks, that's correct. :good:

In the pic in your post above, that tool(32-5508) will only press the springs and outer chamber down so you can change the o-rings on the top hat/air fitting/eye. It will NOT allow you to remove/change the seal in the bottom of the shocks.
If you have a hydraulic press, it wouldn't take much to fabricate an adapter at all. Then again, if ya have some re-bar laying around, and a welder, it wouldn't take much to duplicate the 32-5507, either. :mrgreen: