C5, PowerArc, and the mystery of Timing

[C5Performance]

What is multiple spark?

An ignition that produces more than one spark to ignite the fuel mixture.

Why do I want it?

It improves cold starts, stabilizes idle, increases power without adding more fuel, reduces oil contamination, and typically reduces emissions.

How does MSD multi spark?

Lets take a quote directly from the MSD website:

“MSD’s ignition boxes feature Multiple Sparks at lower RPMS, along with a stronger, hotter, higher voltage spark to completely ignite the mixture.” MSD produces a shower or short duration sparks to stabilize spark at low rpm but shuts off around 3,000 rpm.

How does PowerArc/C5 multi spark?

Produces up to three full length sparks from idle to maximum rpm (red line). The advantages of multiple sparking at low rpm do not diminish at higher rpm and the PowerArc system continues to multi spark beyond mid range.

Can you explain more about the advantages and how it affects the fuel burn?

Yes, in the next post.

 

[C5Performance]

Steve83 » Tue Sep 24, 2013 10:39 pm[/url]":sg47o6rn]
With all the talk of coil saturation time, how effective is multi-sparking at higher RPM? A 4-cylinder engine, running at 6,000 RPM (3,000 RPM cam speed) fires it's plugs 12,000 times per minute. With dual coils, each one fires half of those, so each coil fires 6,000 times per minute, or 100 times per second. With multi-spark, that number triples, so your coils are firing 300 times every second! Pretty impressive, but not a lot of saturation time - and even less as you reach red-line...

Just my thoughts...they're probably all wrong! It's been a long day... This is all good stuff, thanks, guys!

Doesn't it blow your mind at how hard a multi spark coil must work to give you fast starts and smooth power?
Coils must recover very fast at high rpm to avoid a misfire.

Precise control is a big part of it. A coil needs very little time to fill at low rpm and much longer time at high rpm.
Heat at low rpm is much harder on a coil than just about anything else.

 

[C5Performance]

So tell me again what multiple sparking does (beyond the basic statement made earlier).

Imagine your engine drawing in a fresh gulp of unburned fuel and air. Your piston rises and compresses this cloud into a smaller and smaller area.
Just before your piston reaches the top, the spark plug ignites with a HUGE ball of energy.

What happens next is an incredible thing. The fuel begins to burn at temperatures exceeding 2,000 degrees F.
Yes, that's right....10 times the heat that your temperature gauge shows!

The burn starts at your sparkplug tip and moves outward toward the cylinder head, cylinder walls, and piston top. As the burn works outward, a wave is created at the flame front. Just before the flame reaches the edges, the wave moves back upon itself and the flame goes out.

WOW...that was a close one! If that 2,000 degree heat reached your engine it would have melted down fast.

So what happened to that layer of cool unburned fuel?

In a normal engine it would be pumped out of the cylinder as unburned fuel and that's what you smell on most carbureted engines, especially during cold starting. The energy from that unburned fuel is wasted. Some of the unburned fuel leaks past your rings, especially during cold starts, and contaminates your engine oil.

What if there was a way to ignite that fuel instead? :headscratch:

 

[mcgovern61]

All of this information is just SHOCKING! :shock: :smilie_happy:

(Sorry Paul.....back to the explanations....) :whip:

 

[skiri251]

Now I realize that Multi Sparking is on my Oldwing..
Wow, that's great!

So if I install C5 on my BSA, does it rejuvenate her in the same way as my Oldwing?
Hmmmm...

 

[C5Performance]

mcgovern61 » Wed Sep 25, 2013 9:50 am[/url]":25g0s094]
All of this information is just SHOCKING! :shock: :smilie_happy:

(Sorry Paul.....back to the explanations....) :whip:

Why dont we have an emoticon with lightning and fire??

 

[C5Performance]

skiri251 » Wed Sep 25, 2013 9:57 am[/url]":2rqu6u2y]
Now I realize that Multi Sparking is on my Oldwing..
Wow, that's great!

So if I install C5 on my BSA, does it rejuvenate her in the same way as my Oldwing?
Hmmmm...

Yes, we have kits for British bikes, Japanese, Harley, Italian, Russian, etc...
When we installed our first Chevy V-8 kit, it was in that orange Corvette you see on our website. After 4-5 runs while steadily advancing the distributor, we swapped in the C5 and gained....ready for it....drum roll......I can't take the suspense.....18 REAR WHEEL horsepower. That's a 20% gain over the "best" run with the Chevy HEI distributor.

Such a fuss they made. The shop owner ran the car 8 more times trying to get a dyno reading that showed our ignition wasn't really making that big of a change. In the end, he decided to be our first automotive dealer and was the first customer for our Mopar ignition.

I will tell you that not all engines show hp increases on the dyno (Gary will agree). You do notice better starts, faster warm ups, and stronger running that you FEEL but sometimes cannot measure.
On the Vette, it's the first time the owner could smoke the tires since he bought the car 10 years ago. It really sounded nasty and mean after the upgrade.

 

[AApple]

Why dont we have an emoticon with lightning and fire??

 

[Ansimp]

AApple » Thu Sep 26, 2013 1:04 pm[/url]":12dch9q3]

Why dont we have an emoticon with lightning and fire??

It looks like you have been shocked!!! :smilie_happy:

 

[C5Performance]

AApple » Wed Sep 25, 2013 10:04 pm[/url]":1g44658y]

Why dont we have an emoticon with lightning and fire??

YES...PERFECT!!

 

[C5Performance]

This post may have slowed, but we are doing some tests you might find interesting. We are trying to start engines without a battery. As you might know, electronic ignitions (ours for sure) need power before the engine starts, in order to determine when to fire the sparkplugs.

We have successfully started a Triumph using just a 9 volt battery, then switching over to rectifier power alone.

Today (Nov 9, 2013) we succeeded in starting it with a micro sized 4700uF capacitor and NO battery. We could start it first kick with the 9v but it took 3-6 kicks using just the capacitor.

Although we don't know if Goldwing owners crave a "no battery" wiring harness but the chopper/bobber/cafe racer sure does. The kit we are designing is for a Triumph chopper being built in Mexico. The customer wishes to avoid any type of battery.

 

[slabghost]

Very cool idea but with most of our bikes kick start is not an option.

 

[82a]

C5Performance » Sat Nov 09, 2013 1:05 am[/url]":2tgp1epv]
This post may have slowed, but we are doing some tests you might find interesting. We are trying to start engines without a battery. As you might know, electronic ignitions (ours for sure) need power before the engine starts, in order to determine when to fire the sparkplugs.

We have successfully started a Triumph using just a 9 volt battery, then switching over to rectifier power alone.

Today (Nov 9, 2013) we succeeded in starting it with a micro sized 4700uF capacitor and NO battery. We could start it first kick with the 9v but it took 3-6 kicks using just the capacitor.

Although we don't know if Goldwing owners crave a "no battery" wiring harness but the chopper/bobber/cafe racer sure does. The kit we are designing is for a Triumph chopper being built in Mexico. The customer wishes to avoid any type of battery.

few more options out there viewtopic.php?f=12&t=6933

IF YOU'RE TRYING TO SIMPLIFY THINGS THEN USE THIS BOX TO GET RID OF YOUR BATTERY, ZENER DIODE, RECTIFIER AND REMOTE CAPACITOR. IT'S ALL BUILT INTO THIS UNIT !! YOU CAN STILL WIRE IN A BATTERY IF YOU NEED TO BUT HAVE THE PEACE OF MIND THAT YOU'RE BIKE WILL STILL START IF THE BATTERY IS DEAD OR LOW. CAN BE USED WITH TWO AND THREE WIRE ALTERNATORS AND TO CONVERT 6 VOLT ALTERNATORS TO TWELVE VOLT. JUST PAIR ANY OF THE THREE WIRES COMING OUT OF THE ALTERNATOR AND CHANGE YOUR BULBS TO 12V AND AWAY YOU GO

 

[joedrum]

hmmmmm this is interesting to me ...as I got other uses for oldwing motors ....

 

[C5Performance]

We are not building this kit for Goldwings, but this is one reason I haven't been on here much lately. Many irons currently in the fire!

The regulator/rectifier in the link is similar to one I use on my CB750. For final production we'll probably make our own. For British bike owners we could also use a customers stock Zenor diode and those tiny little rectifiers.

What our plan involves right now is a 9v battery that operates using an ignition switch. Once the bike is running the "magic box" switches to 12v power and isolates the little battery. We'll have one capacitor for the coil (many bikes already have one) and another to use as a fail safe (the bike takes 5-6 kicks without a 9v battery) but I doubt it would be needed.

Since posting pictures and notes on our Facebook page we've been swamped with requests from all over the world. This could be used for any electronic ignition.

 

[C5Performance]

For anyone interested in the small 9v battery box we'd been testing (for use with other cycles you might have?) we bring more news...

Now we can start any bike with a permanent magnet rotor and the updated C5 ignition with NO BATTERY at all....not even the 9 volt.

The C5 ignition has received multiple upgrades a few weeks ago, and now supports use of our Battery Eliminator kit.


We are also starting production of a generic wire harness for motorcycles. Those of us building minimalist bikes can now start with a new harness and add from there.

Read about it here:

https://www.utahcaferacer.com/2014/02/21 ... rformance/

 

[joedrum]

now this is getting interesting ...

 

[slabghost]

Now if I can just fit a kicker on my 1200!

 

[C5Performance]

slabghost » Sun Feb 23, 2014 2:05 pm[/url]":2b4eldoc]
Now if I can just fit a kicker on my 1200!

Is there any way to add a kicker to the 1200?? Can a 1000 mechanism be adapted?

 

[Steve83]

I don't think so - very different crankshafts. Of course, now that I've said that, someonw will do it!