C5, PowerArc, and the mystery of Timing

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good stuff .... all I can say is the c5 has no debate in me at all ....screw the pops .... to me its obvious the c5 is so much different probably one bike in 20 might have the carbs setup good for the c5 ... once the c5 and the carbs adjusted too huge difference in the c5 set up pops will go away

sheesh the stock iggy is so off firing in its chain of dependence ...as soon as you put on the c5 you have carb trouble ... this is all good it lets you know how good the system is ... not what its deficiencies are ... in the joedrum way of looking at things :hi:
 
[url=https://www.classicgoldwings.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=95716#p95716:110hhrzt said:
C5Performance » Tue Sep 10, 2013 10:27 pm[/url]":110hhrzt]
So why would they use a different curve? "well the CBR has more power and goes faster"
Remember, the engineers have designed the transmissions so gearing matches the horsepower of the engine.

This should be elaborated on more because it's a key reason why PowerArc will not program in more advance than stock.

As I understand it, in the case of the CBR the power to weight is much different. Lot's of power on a light bike.
Because of this, engine load is lower so it can be advanced more to squeeze out more power.
Also the gearing is designed different to make use of the power better.

Like Joe's Hooch.
He has it geared down, that's why it will walk up his driveway at idle.
Since he has the lower gears he could possibly run a tad more advance, maybe not.
I think we tried it and Joe found no gain from it.
 
[url=https://www.classicgoldwings.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=95732#p95732:1ufdno2c said:
dan filipi » Wed Sep 11, 2013 8:01 am[/url]":1ufdno2c]
Wes, it's unlikely the curve will need to be changed normally.
As I see it the changes would be needed only under extreme conditions but even at that,

My first ride with it in it was about 100 degrees and I was riding it hard.
I didn't have the radiator deflectors on and engine temp was running about 3/4, much higher than it should be.

I got on a stretch of freeway I could hear and feel the engine better.
It's a uphill grade and even at those extreme conditions it didn't ping on regular gas.

Dan, a few questions for you....

I've seen other wings without the radiator deflectors. How much will this raise the running temp?

Also, I will get into fuel burn rates eventually, but wanted to mention that running a lower octane fuel speeds up burn, and effectively advances your timing. You can go from 91 down towards 87 and if you are careful to run the bike very low on fuel each time you change to a lower octane, you can find the lowest octane your timing will support without pinging. This increases timing, and can RAISE horsepower, up until the point your bike starts to detonate.
At that point you can switch to the next curve, and keep riding without hurting your engine. There is a cross over point of octane and timing. Use this to your advantage and save money purchasing less expensive fuel for your Wing.

What octane do you normally put in your GL1100?
 
I run 87 octane.

As for the deflectors (off topic) the gauge temp would typically be below 1/2 under the same conditions. Without them it ran 3/4 and above riding hard between 65 and 85 mph.
 
Wow very interesting discussion.
Can hardly wait for my C5 to arrive.

I guess I can use that stock vacuum advance diaphram to operate a switch (just being cheap. LOL).

Manual advance: like vintage Indian Chief? LOL.
 
What I did was put the leaking vacuum advance back in just to plug the whole.
I have another complete good assembly I'm going to sell to help recoupe cost which is a good idea for anyone going with the c5. Sell your working vacuum diaphragm and pickups along with the base but keep the housing. Seal the hole with epoxy or something.

Use a working vacuum as a switch, intresting idea.
I think you'll find it won't be needed though.
 
[url=https://www.classicgoldwings.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=95743#p95743:26ii89k5 said:
dan filipi » Wed Sep 11, 2013 9:51 am[/url]":26ii89k5]
What I did was put the leaking vacuum advance back in just to plug the whole.
I have another complete good assembly I'm going to sell to help recoupe cost which is a good idea for anyone going with the c5. Sell your working vacuum diaphragm and pickups along with the base but keep the housing. Seal the hole with epoxy or something.

Use a working vacuum as a switch, intresting idea.
I think you'll find it won't be needed though.
Selling parts is the only way I will be able to get a C5 in my economy which is OK because I have been selling and trading parts to get my bike where it is now. It is just hard to convince my Wife after she hears the bike start up now and I tell her how bad it is running and I REALLY NEED THIS! :beg:

(There is not a whole lot of sympathy on this one as I already hit her up for letting me convert the bike back to Standard. :mrgreen: )
 
I would also like to add to the side note that YES those radiator deflectors are needed and I experienced the same issue.

When I first restored the bike, I removed the deflectors because they were rusty beyond salvage and I thought they were aftermarket chrome goodies. I did not know they were standard (and required) equipment. My bike was running in that 3/4 range with knocking and pinging on hot days. Added the deflectors, removed my fancy radiator grill and that engine cooled right down, max half on the temp needle.

With my carbs set correctly, new plugs and wires (no resistor caps), I use 87 octane in all riding conditions and temps and I no longer have a pinging issue.
 
I'd also like to add (sort of on topic) that after installing the c5 it became very obvious I have carb problems where I simply was not sure before.

The bike ran just ok before.
It's hard to describe the difference it made, you can just feel that its firing on all 4 cylinders.
I can now feel and hear a definate difference in the engine and exhaust tones that make it obvious there's a problem on the left side 2 and 4 cylinders.

Intresting too is that the flooding #2 cylinder spark plug is tan even though it's running very rich.
 
[url=https://www.classicgoldwings.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=95746#p95746:18kzarx1 said:
mcgovern61 » Wed Sep 11, 2013 8:16 am[/url]":18kzarx1]
[url=https://www.classicgoldwings.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=95743#p95743:18kzarx1 said:
dan filipi » Wed Sep 11, 2013 9:51 am[/url]":18kzarx1]
What I did was put the leaking vacuum advance back in just to plug the whole.
I have another complete good assembly I'm going to sell to help recoupe cost which is a good idea for anyone going with the c5. Sell your working vacuum diaphragm and pickups along with the base but keep the housing. Seal the hole with epoxy or something.

Use a working vacuum as a switch, intresting idea.
I think you'll find it won't be needed though.
Selling parts is the only way I will be able to get a C5 in my economy which is OK because I have been selling and trading parts to get my bike where it is now. It is just hard to convince my Wife after she hears the bike start up now and I tell her how bad it is running and I REALLY NEED THIS! :beg:

(There is not a whole lot of sympathy on this one as I already hit her up for letting me convert the bike back to Standard. :mrgreen: )

I got lucky the stator happened to break. The engine is out of the frame and I can tell my wife this C5 ignition is a part I NEED to fix the engine. :hihihi:

If this was one more bike to buy, that would be very hard to explain...
 
I took the liberty of posting the 4 curves into the gallery.

These are the curves programmed into my 1100 kit according to Paul:

Curve 1 (Stock advance curve)
image.php


Curve 2
image.php


Curve 3
image.php


Curve 4
image.php
 
[url=https://www.classicgoldwings.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=95751#p95751:2o9in8p8 said:
dan filipi » Wed Sep 11, 2013 10:48 am[/url]":2o9in8p8]
I'd also like to add (sort of on topic) that after installing the c5 it became very obvious I have carb problems where I simply was not sure before.

The bike ran just ok before.
It's hard to describe the difference it made, you can just feel that its firing on all 4 cylinders.
I can now feel and hear a definate difference in the engine and exhaust tones that make it obvious there's a problem on the left side 2 and 4 cylinders.

Intresting too is that the flooding #2 cylinder spark plug is tan even though it's running very rich.


Dan, one thing i might have said to Joe, but never mentioned on the forum, is plug color.
Anyone used to tuning 2 strokes (like me) use plug color to indicate proper jetting. If you saw a white plug you freaked out, knowing the engine was too lean and on the verge of blowing up.

After installing a C5 it would be common to have white plugs, and any darker color would indicate an overly rich condition.
You mentioned a tan color, which normally would be perfect, but on your bike now indicates too much fuel.
 
I am not sure if we talked about this, but I was always told to do plug color checks in third gear full throttle, after the engine has been warmed up.
If you check color after idling, you will get a false color reading.

We ran the engine to full rpm and cut the engine and throttle at the same time. Coast to a stop and pull the plugs.

Oh yeah, stay off the freeway when doing this :mischief:
 
I'm also wondering how the advance curve is figured, since you no longer have a mechanical/vacuum advance mechanism, nor are there any other sensors involved, such as baro/map, knock, or throttle input(tps)

To understand timing, first you must understand how all aspects of an engine work so you can see why the timing is placed where it is optimal for performance, without hurting the engine.
I have previously explained what a timing curve is. Now let's start with the question of mechanical/vacuum advancers and intake manifold vacuum.

When your engine is at idle or under a light load (flat surface or a down hill) with the throttle minimally open, the manifold pressure will be high.

As the throttle is opened the velocity of the incoming air increases. The engine rpm then increases, and the mass airflow increases. Manifold vacuum however, actually DECREASES. Simply put, when you open the carburetor butterfly or slide you are opening a large hole. This allows more air in which fills the void, so vacuum decreases.

“How does that affect my Wing?”

The Gl1100 timing (depending on year) at idle is 10-13 degrees BTDC (before Top Dead Center).
Full advance is 38.5 degrees. Since the 1100 has flyweights, timing advance is added once the rpm exceeds 950 (when it was new anyway). So part of your 38.5 advance comes from the weights, and part comes from the advancer mechanism. Got it?

NOTE: When your engine first starts, you have NO vacuum. Once the engine is running your vacuum climbs to the highest reading. This causes your advancer diaphram to pull in the rod, and moves it to the MOST advanced position.

Don't get confused. Low rpm/low load creates high vacuum, which pulls your mechanical advancer to the MOST advanced position. (Let's say the 10-13 degrees of advance at idle is probably provided by your vacuum advancer...does anyone know? Please share if you do! ).

So your bike is idling, and the vacuum advancer is fully advanced. As you increase rpm the fly weights start to provide the rest of the advance. Now lets assume you are at full advance and you roll on the throttle to speed up. The load on your engine goes UP. That causes your vacuum to go DOWN, and causes the advancer to back off, which RETARDS the timing of your engine.

If for example, your advancer is responsible for 10 degrees of the total 38.5 degrees of advance, you can begin to see why a properly working advancer would be important. A change in load could retard your timing by up to 10 degrees.

Many forums have posts recommending plugging the VA hose and forgetting it. This would be a poor recommendation as this would reduce your timing and could affect engine operation.

Things to be noted:
Engine vacuum falls as the throttle is opened and is used to sense load
Engine Timing is reduced (retarded) under loaded conditions
 
[url=https://www.classicgoldwings.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=95839#p95839:3hopzdi7 said:
dan filipi » Thu Sep 12, 2013 8:02 am[/url]":3hopzdi7]
So basically....... where the stock system reduces advance when the throttle is opened, the C5 maintains it... Correct?

That is correct.

There are two ways to change this:

1) Install a VOES switch from a Harley
2) Install a MAP sensor kit (we are working on this)
 
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