Clutch application noise revisited

[dan filipi]

I got this 1984 motor used and have no history.
Here is what I do know about it.

1. I had the big rear cover off, rotor bolt was loose and there we're signs of it scraping the stator windings and case.
2. Stator was dead so I replaced it with an 1100 stator. Same 1984 rotor went back in.
3. Since it's hydraulic clutch actuation I fitted the 1983 small rear cover to use the 1100 cable actuator I already have.
4. Output shaft changed to 1100 to have the snap ring.

This noise only happens at a start from stopped, mostly when cold but I have heard it after riding awhile and well warmed up and only at start out from a stop.
It's not normal so I'm asking for all opinions what to go after before I dig into it.

[video]https://youtu.be/MxcJ-dAOfvE[/video]

I have some thoughts but want to put this out to everyone first for ideas.

I can 'feel' some sort of movement in the bike when the noise comes on. Subtle but it's there.
The best way I can describe the noise in real life would be similar to an old electric drill that has a bad bearing.

May be unrelated (?) but this motor also rattles....... This is at 800-900 rpm.

[video]https://youtu.be/Y2bHsYBIFas[/video]

 

[Steve83]

Starting from a stop is when the clutch slips most, during gradual engagement. Gear changes are nearly instant engagement, so minimum slippage. Maybe a plate is scored, or the center cushion plate is defective, but it really sounds like a dry bearing - like in a drill as you said. It'll be interesting to find out what's goin' on in there...

 

[dan filipi]

Yes the one thing I didn't check (clutch pack) is where I'm headed with this.
The pack has to be compressed to remove a snap ring that I chose to not open because everything else looked low miles and a clean scavenger pump area.

I am curious though if the 1100 throwout bearing push position could be enough different than the 84 hydro actuator.
Unfortunately I don't have the hydro lines or master cylinder to swap back and try but I will compare the actuator more closely.

 

[joedrum]

i agree steve ...i think this motor got stop all at once at some point ....and the rear cover area took the torque of trying to spin it from rear wheel ... i agree clut sounds like plate and bearing problems ...and then second vid indicates primary chain took huge torque also try to spin motor that wouldnt spin anymore ...after some testing on oil pressure yesterday ...makes me think clutch and primary chain work will fix this motor as new ....is what i think as opinion

 

[Omega Man]

The video won't load on my phone at work. :/ is the sound anything like that low soft grind in my bike that goes away when lever is compressed?

 

[dan filipi]

Omega Man » Sun Oct 12, 2014 12:03 pm[/url]":2h18sl7i]
The video won't load on my phone at work. :/ is the sound anything like that low soft grind in my bike that goes away when lever is compressed?

Yours is more a very slight low groan which is normal imo, mine is more a clack, slap, or knock in the primary chain area.

 

[dan filipi]

Rechecked compression per Honda shop manual, normal operating temp....170 all 4 so bottom end is worth saving.

 

[dan filipi]

So I'm comparing the clutch throwout bearing design and it looks identical to the 1983 design where it counts.
Maybe we'll see some differences that could cause this noise?

1200:

So far only difference I see is the 84 little cover uses a pin that goes into the center sleeve in the throwout bearing.. 83 has a flat part that pushes against the face of the bearing center..

 

[Ansimp]

Is it possible to convert your 83 to hydraulic instead of cable as this seems the easiest way to prove throw out bearing noise. From what you have described I am leaning towards throw out bearing noise :yes:

 

[slabghost]

If they are the same otherwise. Why not install the 83 clutch and see if that fixes it?

 

[dan filipi]

slabghost » Sun Oct 12, 2014 2:38 pm[/url]":2otur4y2]
If they are the same otherwise. Why not install the 83 clutch and see if that fixes it?

I could do that.
I do like the pressure and application I get from the 1200 assembly though. The pressure design is better.
I could slip the 1100 clutch.
Oh but to get the basket out engine has to come out.

 

[Andyb]

I have a somewhat similar noise in my 1100 when I am taking off for the first time with a coldish motor. That one is much worse than mine though and mine won't do it more than once. I always assumed it was the plates coming unstuck and then sticking again.

That rattle sounds like the primary chain rattle I get when my carbs are out of synch. But, I guess that is not a problem with a single carb. Maybe 800-900 is just too low of an idle level for the single carb conversions to be smooth. That is just a WAG though as I have no experience with that.

 

[dan filipi]

I'm thinking that idle speed too is just too low.
1200 or so it quiets way down.

 

[mcgovern61]

If I remember, when a throw out bearing is going bad, you can hear it as you just pull in the handle and put pressure on the clutch when cold. We had a '63 Rambler with 3 speed on the column and when the throw out bearing was wiping, you could hear it (and feel it) as you pushed the pedal in.

 

[Steve83]

This is not a throwout bearing noise, it's more like a clutch chatter. A bad throwout bearing would make the noise with every clutch action, not just starting from a stop.

 

[dan filipi]

Steve83 » Mon Oct 13, 2014 12:13 pm[/url]":3dblmid7]
This is not a throwout bearing noise, it's more like a clutch chatter. A bad throwout bearing would make the noise with every clutch action, not just starting from a stop.

That's what I'm thinking also, the damper plate maybe.
This clutch works beautifully otherwise. Both hot and cold it's not grabby or chattery like the 1100 was, and always smooth predictable application.

 

[slabghost]

I think you may have something with the idle RPM. Idle below 1000 rpm isn't going to save much fuel and may cause charging issues.

 

[dan filipi]

If the clutch noise wasn't so loud I wouldn't be so concerned about it.

Thinking along the lines of clutch chatter.....
This engine sat for at least 2 years after the PO bought it, unknown how long before that.
It was suggested a while back maybe the plates were dry.
I have tied the clutch lever back many times over night in an attempt to help saturate the plates but maybe I should try a different approach to that.

I would warm up the engine then shut it down and tie the lever back.
Think maybe if I ran it up through a couple fan cycles with clutch pulled back and in gear with tire stopped, more oil would get in between the plates?
Do this once a day all this week?
Is this something that's unlikely to help given I've already put well over 1000 miles on it with no change in the noise?

 

[slabghost]

maybe one or more of the clutch plates has bonded dirt making the surface irregular? I'd check over all the plates for smoothness and whether they are in spec. If all is good run 4-6 oz of ATF in the oil until the next oil change and see if it improves.

 

[dan filipi]

slabghost » Mon Oct 13, 2014 1:19 pm[/url]":32ohzu6q]
maybe one or more of the clutch plates has bonded dirt making the surface irregular? I'd check over all the plates for smoothness and whether they are in spec. If all is good run 4-6 oz of ATF in the oil until the next oil change and see if it improves.

Unfortunately unlike the 1100 and 1000, the clutch basket and plates have to come out as an assembled unit which means engine out just to look at the plates.
I'll have to have another look at the manual page if there's another way.