Cylinder honing how to

[dan filipi]

I'm learning so I made a video.
Am I doing it right?

Do I need to go nuts getting the stained metal looking all even?
I can't feel any kind of ridge or depressions.

 

[AApple]

Dial-up, so I can't watch the vid right now, but...the pic shows that you have a linear pattern going on. You really want more of a 45 degree cross-hatch pattern. You need to move the hone in-out faster, or slow the drill down. :mrgreen:

Crosshatch angle is important, but not as critical to creating a perfect bore as roundness, straightness and surface finish. Typical crosshatch angles are 45 or 30 degrees, +/-5 degrees. Lighter tension rings will usually use the 30 degree crosshatch angle. A steep crosshatch provides a faster relief of oil, while lesser angle holds more oil. Another aspect is ring rotation, which is driven by steeper angles, so the lower angles are more appropriate with low-tension, thinner, rings. :builder:

 

[dan filipi]

I'm wondering how to get that crosshatch pattern.
Is it the hone stone that makes it or the cutter that bores out a cylinder?

 

[scdmarx]

I'm wondering how to get that crosshatch pattern.
Is it the hone stone that makes it or the cutter that bores out a cylinder?

AApple's right, you're gonna have to get a variable speed drill and slow the drill speed down. As you're going in and out you'll be able to see the crosshatch angle of your hone. Yes, it's the hone that make the crosshatch.

You said you're learning on a ruined engine, so it won't matter. To break the glaze in order to seat new rings, a ball hone would be best. I haven't done any cylinder work in years and I miss it. It looks like the hone you are useing is for achiving a finish size. You can practice your crosshatch technique, but you'll need a boregauge to check size.

Let's say you have a standard size piston, but your cylinder has worn too big for the proper fit. You measure the cylinder to see how far you'd have to go to fit the next oversized piston. Then you'd add the "piston to cylinderwall" spec for clearance. That will be your finish size. Your desired target. Now you can bore the cylinder, but you're only gonna cut it to maybe 3-4 thousandths smaller than your desired finish size. Now you will use the hone to achive your desired crosshatch finish. You have allowed yourself that 3-4 thousandths to do it.
The cutting bit on the boreing bar leaves a very rough, jagged finish that will tear up the rings. The hone is to smooth down the finish, while bringing the cylinder to the desired finished size. If you've only got just a few thousandths to go to fit the next piston size, then you might get away with just honeing the cylinder to size, while cleaning it up.

You'll want to be checking the size often while honeing. You can take metal away, but you can't put it back. Check for "size", "taper", and "out of round". Something to keep in mind when honeing: The center of the cylinder tends to get bigger at a faster rate than the ends. This is because the center sees 2 passes for each time you stroke it. In other words the center of the cylinder sees the hone 2 times every time the ends see the hone once. When you discover this "barrel shape" during your measuring, then you'll have to spend a little more time on the ends to keep the cylinder straight.

Kinda hard to tell about your "stains". If they are etched from corrosion it will need to be cleaned up with the hone. (which means take away more metal) If they are hard spots in the metal, I don't remember what to tell you about that.

 

[dan filipi]

How's this, looking better?

I tried at a much slower speed with rapid in and out :shock:

 

[scdmarx]

That's looking a lot better.

 

[dan filipi]

I'll get a video how I did that later on.

In one of these cylinders I see a spot right near the head that's smooth and untouched by the hone, warped cylinder?
I'll get a pic of that too.

 

[joedrum]

any speed faster than producing good force to keep the hone againts the cylinder is to fast and causes rideover and not even cutting ,,,cross hatching on a flat motor needs to be aggressive as gravity is not realy in play and the way to go ,,,,slow everything down ...and all comments i read are all correct ,,,,

 

[dan filipi]

A few questions so I know what I'm trying to achieve...

Lets say a cylinder is bored out, the honing process is intended to put on a final finish to scrub the rings and seat them?

Lets say no bore out,
Honing is intended to break the glaze and also scrub the rings to seat them?

 

[joedrum]

yes dan its the final touch ....and the most credical and important proccess ....thi is where human touch and control beats any machine proccess ...you want to be smooth as you can ...to get the smoothest and best finish as possible...the faster you go the more glazing the finish is ....the hone has an optimin speed range where it cuts the best without burnishing or glazing and is realy the fastest way it just dont seem like it ....

as ron said you have a certain measurement you cant go beyond and dont ...as this would only lead to a bad job and outcome .....you will get the best cross hatching from the slower speed in the cylinder than you will get any other way to the measurement you dont want to go over period....the closer yu get to the measurement the more aware you have to be as in where yor at and what your doing .....dont making it to big for the sake of the cross hatching to look good ...it will only hurt the motor heath and final outcome of the build :heat:

 

[AApple]

:shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock:
OMG!!!! I just watched the video!! Yeeeesh!! :shock: Yeah Dan...waaaaay too fast on the drill, there, pardner!! :smilie_happy: :smilie_happy: :smilie_happy: Try a more relaxed 200-300rpm. Maybe 500.
Joe said what I was thinking...your really doing more burnishing at that speed than anything. It's just too fast for the hone to actually cut properly, and you'll wind up ruining the stones from overheating.

The second try looks moooch mo betta, tho. :good:


Back in the day, on our race engines, when the final bore size got real close to what we wanted from honing, we would wrap a sheet of 600 grit sandpaper around the stones, and run that up/down the bore to get the final dimensions we wanted. It made the cylinder walls almost mirror-like, but still with enough of a pattern to retain the oil on the rings. It also eliminated a lot of excess metal from the rings scraping across the rougher honed surface.


Yer gettin there! :salute:

 

[dan filipi]

It made the cylinder walls almost mirror-like, but still with enough of a pattern to retain the oil on the rings. It also eliminated a lot of excess metal from the rings scraping across the rougher honed surface. :salute:

My understanding is you DO NOT want a mirror finish correct?
Rough enough to seat the rings but not so rough it tears up the rings?

I gather it's something like a brake rotor. Mirror smooth rotors won't break in new pads properly, they will just sorta slide on the surface.

 

[dan filipi]

Another question,

what do you guys think about this spot on the cylinder?

It is completely smooth and untouched by the hone, warped cylinder?

I'm gonna do some more of the old in out in out with the hone and see what happens.

let's see, where's my hammer :builder: :mrgreen:

 

[joedrum]

that last step apple mention is great thng to do .....as he said it just gets rid of any high burrs that could cause drag and wear on the rings while still retaining god oiling grooves in the clylinders ....this job either makes or breaks good engine job ....lots of horse power made right here in ths job :whip:

if he spot is past the allowable measurement zone leav it alone ...you would only spreadthe problem ....that spot wont hurt as much a going to big ....rins will never seat right and compression ge down :mrgreen:

 

[dan filipi]

I did another video, how does this look for speed?



It looks like I have much further to hone to undue the fast speed I ran earlier to get the crosshatch right.
Keep in mind these are close up high res pics cropped and made smaller so every little imperfection will show,

So at this point I'm wondering how far I take it.

Using old rings, I measured the end cap.
Per the book they are all within serviceable limits but close to the end.

I'm sure these old rings have wear so I have to measure end gap with new rings to be accurate, right?

I don't have a bore caliper, they are expensive so if I can do without one I'll have that much more money to ride this bad boy with a rebuilt engine.

Question:
Using the piston to push the new rings in squarely, is then measuring the ring end gap at 3-4 points down the cylinder accurate enough to check for evenness of the cylinder wall?

 

[joedrum]

gee i hate to be negitive

1 the honing rig is way to long and out of balance you can see it going back and forth betwen the drill and the hone it wont cut smooth that way

2 the drill is way to small it needs to be a dail varible speed dril with a bigger chuck

3you have to get block in a comfortable possition for to work with

4 the stroke has to be perfect strait in and stait out ...ad then the speed of the drill adjusted to your perfect stroke to get the hatch marks you want...

shorten the one ....etter drill....use both hands together like one one to imrove your stoke.....have block in beter possition for you to get the pefect stroke

and yes the piston ring will work like you said for trueness but you need to slow down and get realy serious for that to work

honing and old block and using old pistons and new rings is the hardest hone job to do

opcorn: oh2: :nea: :whip: :mrgreen:

 

[dan filipi]

Not negative, I appreciate the input and suggestions.

Tell me, why is a drill with a bigger chuck needed?

 

[joedrum]

if the drill is bigger and also has dialable varible speed it difinitly out dose the hone in mass and is also in your hands .....this makes it easier to cotrol he hone ....also a bigger chuck puts more tension and hold on he tool ...also more stable in bearings the drill has...the dial varible speed takes a job away from your hands so you can concentrate on the stroke ...that the job that has to be concentrated on ...to that end :mrgreen:

 

[dan filipi]

Well the drill I'm using is 0-400 rpm in low gear so holding the trigger open full is 400 rpm, Joel said that speed is ok.
In the video the camera was on my stool so without it there I'd be sitting comfortable and straight on to the bore.

I found at 400 rpm I have to move the tool in and out rapidly to get a crosshatch, otherwise it will cut too much in a circle.

As for the wobble I need to take a close look at it why that is.

Sure is nice to have a scrap block to practice.

 

[joedrum]

if that was 400 id say yo need to cut that in haft maybe a tad more ....with your current rig 400 is way to fast ....maybe you can wedge the trigger with something to slow it down :mrgreen: