Gl 1200 C5 ignition

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I got roasted on another forum for my opinion on this, but being hardheaded, I'll offer it up again. The "more precise" optical switching, timing curve tunability are nice features. But, in the Goldwing world, appreciable, empirically measurable improvement would be subtle at best. All ignitions are switches - whether they're mechanical (points), inductive, magnetic or optical. A switch is a switch. Although multiple pulses per power stroke theoretically provide better ignition, do they? I would submit that 1/4 mile times and trap speeds would not bear this out. There might be enough improvement over stock on some other older, higher performance machines, but only real-world testing would interest me.

That's where it matters.

I spent many idle hours in my younger days on and beside the drag strip, running cars and motorcycles. Rarely has ignition played a major role in any significant performance improvement - unless replacing something broken.

Reliability is another matter entirely. Dyna has gotten a bad rap, mainly because of reports of unit failures. But, how many 10's of thousands of ignitions have they sold? 100's of thousands? We don't hear from all those who've had nothing but good luck. How many of the failures were due to improper installation or handling?

To me, those marginally better gains are not worth the premium price. And make no mistake about it, the C5 is vastly overpriced.

Flame away guys, but that's my position on the matter. Sorry.
 
well you know what's said about opinions. Let's tackle the "Vastly overpriced " claim. Just how much would it cost for new everything ignition for any one of your bikes? Ignitors, pick ups, rotor, coils, advancer unit,and whatever else is there? C5 is a complete ignition system. How do you discount the improved idle immediately apparent once the C5 ignition is installed? Have you not viewed the before and after dyno test results on the C5 ignitions web site? And all of this improvement with a stock ignition curve utilized. I'm sure you advanced the ignition some for racing to improve power at higher rpm. Heavy pulls often require ignition be retarded some for more power in lower rpm. Like pulling a trailer full of gear and riding two up. Can you easily switch from stock to advanced or retarded with the flip of a switch? The C5 can. I'll not flame you and most likely no one else here will either. But it does seem you are missing some information.
 
i seen the roast they gave you the other forum ....wasnt that long ago it was your position that forum had for the c5 ignition ...now i agree on a few points you made and ignitions and there impact ....but unlike what your saying the oldwing motors have need of a c5 more than most motors ....the oldwing motor being a boxer motor with 180degrees spread for pistons means its always on the peek of balance and could actually go the other way at idle ....also stock carbs are cv type and the gas charge goes from good to lean when throttle is apply ....wings are known to spit and sputter on take off ..this is mostly all carbs ..also the advances on 1000 are spring advance ...and with dyna the advance works different than it does with points ...just from parts are different ....on 1100s there parts that are just not made anymore ....and its also very user unfriendly to access ...1200s same thing parts not made anymore .....

with my bike both things were address carbs and timing ....with the c5 and the one moving part set up ...and complete match package a oldwing never had it so good ....ive seen a oldwing trash a motor from moisture in the air ...dyna has to really be a complete system or it has problems to ....and 1100s and 1200s cant use dyna ....c5 makes a complete system that spot on ...and with my carb mod too it runs like a race motor ...FI set ups dont run any better than my set up ...and the c5 makes that possible cause its spot on like a boxer is in its design ....makes for a perfect package ....so i have to disagree and i fought the entire wing world it seemed when c5 first came out for oldwing ....my point is ..its not good to have a flakey ignition on a perfect motor design ...or carb system ...my bike is proof why thats so ....but i agree its not all c5 ...but its a huge part ...the best thing about hooch is it reliability ...i would take it anywhere and feel super confident i will get there ...very good road bike ....
 
It was a group effort here working hard to help C5 gain a foothold in the Goldwing market. Some worked harder than others but in my eyes CGW is to blame for providing you and others an ignition choice where there was none, no one person is to blame :BigGrin:

Quite frankly I have been told by Paul (the owner) if it wasn't for us he most likely would have stopped Goldwing development all together long ago with all the opposition similar to yours that he was getting at "the other forum". Many have done a 180 in their opinion. It has been entertaining to watch the changed opinions come around.
What the C5 brings to the table is an ignition replacement choice where there is none or damn little. THAT is what we fought for.

I'll not argue the price because i agree it's up there, same for a complete Dyna system but the dyna (only available for the GL1000 and I think 1500) is close in cost for a complete system, however the C5 eliminates the old advancer (not available new) unlike Dyna that still uses the advancer so I'd say that alone makes C5 a better choice. Remember too that the GL1100 vacuum advancers aren't available either which the C5 eliminates also.

Real world gains I'll agree with you. On a stock Gl it is very hard to pin down the gains for the way most are ridden but they most certainly ARE there. I have stated time and time again you have to experience the changes on a bike you know intimately to really appreciate the improvement. Increased idle speed and smoother increased low end torque are most noticeable for me the way I ride.

I don't have experience with NOS or other high end mods like that but I do know timing changes are often crucial or imperative and can produce much more bang for the buck when you can tweak the timing, with C5 any timing can be programmed into it so for high end performance mods I see the C5 as being a must have.

Anyway, cost is all relative. I wouldn't spend $500-$600++ on a paint job but I sure would on this ignition.
I think a tuned single carb conversion paired up with the C5 is a great combination. The oldwing motor sure seems to like it.
 
I am just going to answer the OPs question as I think I have a better perspective than most on this subject as I have a 1200 that ran (until it burnt up) without the C5, and now I have the 1200 motor that runs the C5. The motor with the C5 is also running a single carb, but the power difference between the two is quite substantial.

Did it cost a lot? Sure but I wanted a reliable bike and the ignition on my 1100 (when it had an 1100 motor) was beginning to show its age. Is it worth it? Every dime as far as I'm concerned.
 
Well, shoot. Stupid is as stupid does. (Me.) I didn't learn from my experience in "that other place" and stepped in it here, too. I truly don't mean to offend, just offering up a counterpoint.

Keep in mind I'm certainly not criticizing the C5 system. Great technology. If a quicker start and smoother idle - and perhaps marginal improvement in throttle response are enough to justify the cost to folks, then why not? Reliability certainly seems good. That's always a good thing when far from home. But, as I noted earlier about Dyna's purported reliability issues, with many, many thousands of units sold, you'd expect to hear of more issues. I don't think the C5 sales volume compares. If it did, maybe we'd have heard more.

My perspective was from a pure performance aspect. I learned long ago (and I would submit that it still applies) that all other things being equal, performance gains from money spent on high zoot ignitions could often if not always have been greater if spent elsewhere. Induction and exhaust, say.

I think where my position falls flat in the Goldwing community is that it's not just about raw performance. It's also about the machine's manners and behavior.

For the record, my Dyna S, coils and Accel wires ran in the neighborhood of $275. For sure, if I'd spent five bills on an ignition, I'd be unlikely to fault it - unless it really sucked. My position remains that, for almost double the cost, I've not yet been convinced that the premium is justified.

uhh, how about those Panthers, huh?
 
[url=https://classicgoldwings.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=183693#p183693:2mz9dcy0 said:
desertrefugee » Sun Nov 13, 2016 11:53 pm[/url]":2mz9dcy0]
Well, shoot. Stupid is as stupid does. (Me.) I didn't learn from my experience in "that other place" and stepped in it here, too. I truly don't mean to offend, just offering up a counterpoint.

Keep in mind I'm certainly not criticizing the C5 system. Great technology. If a quicker start and smoother idle - and perhaps marginal improvement in throttle response are enough to justify the cost to folks, then why not? Reliability certainly seems good. That's always a good thing when far from home. But, as I noted earlier about Dyna's purported reliability issues, with many, many thousands of units sold, you'd expect to hear of more issues. I don't think the C5 sales volume compares. If it did, maybe we'd have heard more.

My perspective was from a pure performance aspect. I learned long ago (and I would submit that it still applies) that all other things being equal, performance gains from money spent on high zoot ignitions could often if not always have been greater if spent elsewhere. Induction and exhaust, say.

I think where my position falls flat in the Goldwing community is that it's not just about raw performance. It's also about the machine's manners and behavior.

For the record, my Dyna S, coils and Accel wires ran in the neighborhood of $275. For sure, if I'd spent five bills on an ignition, I'd be unlikely to fault it - unless it really sucked. My position remains that, for almost double the cost, I've not yet been convinced that the premium is justified.

uhh, how about those Panthers, huh?
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Okay so you are saying.... what? I suppose Panthers are a sports team of some kind. I don't follow sports. Only the coils are still available that I've found for the 1500's. 1200 ignition requires the CPU to control it which is no longer available new. Where are your beloved dyna options for those models and the 1100? For that matter where is the 1500 or 1800 dyna ignition? When the used parts dry up you will have to choose to cobble an ignition together from whatever is available or scrap an otherwise good bike. The same C5 ignition can be adapted for use from the 1000 models through to the 1500 models and probably the 1800 models when needed. So let's look at your claim of a purely performance point of view. Installation of C5 alone generally nets about a ten percent increase in performance if memory serves. About equal to expected gains from a tuned exhaust usually requiring intake and ignition tuning as well. What sort or performance mods can be done in your view that will gain more for less money and effort? A turbo set up will cost you a great deal more. So will a supercharger. Both will require changing ignition timing to be fully effective as well as a change of exhaust. Nitrous maybe? Oh that too will need different ignition timing.
So now that you've piqued our curiosity just what sort of performance mods do you have in mind? Would they apply to the 1100,1200,1500 models? Under $600 please. The floor is yours.
 
I don't think you stepped in anything here. You were welcome with your opinion and the others with theirs. Many people try many things on motorcycles and Goldwing owners for the most part love to make even tiny improvements to tweak things. There's very little personal flaming on this site at all. Jmo


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No there is not a group bias on the c5 here at all....and most members do not have c5 ignitions or SCC induction system ....but both things have huge effect on the oldwing options to keep these bikes going ...we also have good knowledge of the stock systems here ....classic strives to be a source of all options for oldwings ...flat out in my opinion the c5 is the best after market package for an oldwing ever ....as it brings the best tech to the oldwing bikes ...it rivals anything ever done to oldwings use ...people spend way more for FI projects ..that have had limited success ...super charger projects don't even get off the ground for 500$....many find SCC very hard to succeed at....as the carbs out there are epa carbs and really don't dial in good without mods made to them ....rebuilding stock carbs with the high end kits and a rebuilder with a good reputation is way more than a c5 ...and you get hopefully stock performance once done .....in comparison there hasn't been much trouble with the install of c5 .....the dyna ignitions are 70s tech...and there has been a lot of failures ...i don't think i've heard of any failures on the c5 product ..personally i've really put some miles on mine .....i also had hooch running on points and dyna ..hooch ran well with both ....but not near as well as it does with the custom curves Paul at c5 programmed into my c5 at the c5 meet and greet at my place in Indiana yrs ago ....i've got the stock curve also in hooch ...there definitely is a difference in performance over stock curve in my bike ...is this somewhat misleading? ...yes there's nothing stock about the hooch motor ...basically its a stroked and bored out 1000 motor ....that is 1200 in size now .....to me as performance goes ...there is no better bang for your dollar upgrade than a SCC job with a progressive weber carb ...but i may be the only one out there that gets this kind of performance along with great mpg figures that is better than stock mpg ...there is no plug and play SCC like everyone expects ....out of all the carbs that have been tried here at classic ..it looks like the solex jeep carb that out there seems to be the one closest to plug and play ....but that's what we do here. try things ... and the c5 has the respect of many here ..and there's many naysayers of the past ..that are c5 equipped now ...there are many with dyna ignitions out there with long records of success also and we respect everyones opinion ...and you fit right in here at classic ...no problem ...i personally enjoy your comments here and with me ...personally when it comes to stock ignitions the 1000 with points was the best ....the 1100s and the 1200s things started getting out of reach ....and parts are not out there anymore ..c5 has made efforts to solve this and no other product has ....great thread here
 
You didn't step in anything here or there. Get some thicker skin and say what you believe. I'm not sure how real it is, but people talk of points bounce as a potential at higher rpm. I think C5 takes care of that and outperforms hall magnetic sensor inconsistencies. Another issue is the advance. How good are springs on 40 year old setups? Maybe they're fine, I don't know.

I couldn't see the price in my budget and gambled and went with Powerarc for a cb750, basically the same system but for the crank. It sold for $350. After all is said and done I may have saved some bucks over C5, but you have to make all your own adapters, move the radiator ahead, it is nerve racking making your own.

For half a summer I have messed with mine. Mine has the 750 timing curves and I'm not sure how alike or different they are, but they're close to the same. For most of the summmer I was convinced that the highest performance curve was too much advance at 42 degrees. I wasn't sure if having the cams advanced a few degrees wasn't part of it either. Recently I went to just a little smaller gap 0.027" and now pulls hard to 9000. Now most people don't like to rev them, but I'm not most. I like the surge you get when you hit the next gear. Mine is a hybrid 1200 with 1000 heads cams carbs. Redline for the 1200 is 7000-7500, but with 1000 cams rather than the hydraulics, I think the extra rpm load is safer. The 1200 has a longer stroke which probably is a limiting factor,

I need to plunk down another $130 for a cable so I can create my own curves. I think a little more saturation time and the plugs could be opened a bit more.

As long as they're set up right, there is NOTHING wrong with the stock setup performance. With Hondaman's it will last longer. There are things you can do to add some timing to the advance. A little higher voltage would probably be nice.
 
Well thanks for the information, I think I am sold on the C5 just for the reliability of the system. Also the unavailability of new parts from Honda for the original ignition. Now I will have to start saving some money for this project as well as the alternator conversion. Thanks again. Ohara....
 
[url=https://classicgoldwings.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=183698#p183698:31499nz9 said:
slabghost » Sun Nov 13, 2016 10:00 pm[/url]":31499nz9]
Okay so you are saying.... what? I suppose Panthers are a sports team of some kind. I don't follow sports. Only the coils are still available that I've found for the 1500's. 1200 ignition requires the CPU to control it which is no longer available new. Where are your beloved dyna options for those models and the 1100? For that matter where is the 1500 or 1800 dyna ignition? When the used parts dry up you will have to choose to cobble an ignition together from whatever is available or scrap an otherwise good bike. The same C5 ignition can be adapted for use from the 1000 models through to the 1500 models and probably the 1800 models when needed. So let's look at your claim of a purely performance point of view. Installation of C5 alone generally nets about a ten percent increase in performance if memory serves. About equal to expected gains from a tuned exhaust usually requiring intake and ignition tuning as well. What sort or performance mods can be done in your view that will gain more for less money and effort? A turbo set up will cost you a great deal more. So will a supercharger. Both will require changing ignition timing to be fully effective as well as a change of exhaust. Nitrous maybe? Oh that too will need different ignition timing.
So now that you've piqued our curiosity just what sort of performance mods do you have in mind? Would they apply to the 1100,1200,1500 models? Under $600 please. The floor is yours.
Click to expand...

Wow. Looks like we're going to have to add ignition to the list of topics that bring out the emotion in people - along with oil, tires, religion and politics.

I would normally use another sports analogy here and "throw a BS flag" on the play, but that probably wouldn't work, so I'll just say that your memory isn't serving. A change of ignition - whether from points to electronic (of any kind) or from Dyna to C5 will not yield a 10% increase in performance. That would equate to 8-10 HP or more than a second faster ET at the dragstrip. I'd be astonished if that were true. Maybe if the unit being replaced was broken and the machine running on three cylinders.

So, let's see. What could we do for $600 or less that might yield similar or maybe even better gains than spending that cash on a new ignition?

1) Stock Carb work. Many are not set up well and could benefit from tuning. I've seen this more times than I can count. And the fellow is happy as a clam! He'd be a lot happier with carbs dialed in.

2) Single carb. (Joe Drum is a shining example here of what is possible if you're patient and willing to go through some trial and error). Granted, a solid ignition is going to be a given to go along with it, but I'm just saying "solid" at this point. Timing spot on (or as close as you can get it), coil primary voltage optimal, secondary wiring perfect. (High output coils wouldn't hurt).

3) Exhaust. Factory Goldwing exhaust isn't horrible, but there's some restriction there and gains to be had by removing it. Lots of cheap options here.

4) Early cams (or heads) for a '78/'79. Slightly more aggressive profile, higher-revving, better flow up high. If you're adventurous, there is some work that could be done in the combustion chambers on the heads with a Dremel tool and a little know-how. I wouldn't bother, personally. Lot of effort for relatively low gain.

5) 16" rear wheel/low profile tire. Effectively changing the gearing.

I'm pretty much off the bandwagon now. I've said my piece. The OP is moving ahead with the C5 and I have no doubt that he'll be very happy with it.
 
I do not have a C5. I am also not much of a customizer and try to keep my bike near original. But opening up my '82 wire harness has exposed some issues with how Honda built the wiring system on these old girls. I am currently making changes to my wire harness that will basically only bring it up to modern standards.

Through this process, I have also learned that the wiring for the ignition system isn't exactly top notch, especially if the bike was outside at all. Replacement of the ignition system for me would be as cut and dry as I could make it. I do not want to modify anything more than necessary to get a reliable system. To my knowledge, C5 is the only replacement system out there for the 1100's and 1200's.

(BTW, no flaming here. We like do have open discussions with no finger pointing. Throw your opinion out there. Just be fair if someone else has another opinion that is contrary to the view.)
 
Re-reading my post, I left out that changing to a C5 is most likely the easiest way to get a whole new system for my 1100. When my system starts failing me, I will invest in a C5. Dollars and cents though, I have to wait a bit to get it.
 

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