Gunson Colortune, and the C5

[aussiegold]

on a slightly lighter note than my previous post about dropping a screw in right where it's not wanted. :BigGrin: Tony ( Ansimp ) was kind enough to send his Gunson Colortune down to me to see if it would help in fine tuning my 75. see here... viewtopic.php?f=22&t=8785

info and a demo of the Colortune can be seen here....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQYMqT5Vf80

so, i fit the colortune plug to each cylinder in turn and each one is running a very nice blue, indicating that it is burning all fuel entering the cylinder at idle. the video shows that if the mix is too rich the flame will be different shades of orange/yellow.
i attempted to introduce a rich mixture ( by adjusting the air/fuel idle screw ) to no avail. the flame remained a pretty blue colour.
i came to two possible conclusions.

1 all four idle circuits are dodgy ( unlikely )
2 the C5 ignition is so efficient and the spark that strong , that it will burn any (reasonable ) amount of extra fuel. ( more likely )
which raises the question, will running the C5 , require adjustments of the jetting ? certainly this new engine in my 75, seems to be a little happier with washers under the needles, enrichening the mid range slightly.

on each cylinder, i could see a Slight change in the colour of the flame as i increased the revs, which then quickly returned to a blue colour when the revs were held steady around 2500.
i have spoken to Tony about this and he has suggested to repeat the test, this time using the choke to introduce a rich mixture. which i will do as soon as this ridiculous heat wave here subsides. (cool change coming this weekend. )
i will also make a short video of the next test. :salute:

 

[joedrum]

now you step into it ... when the color changes as you increase rpm ...this indicates how the carb is slow to react ..this is entirely cause by vacume operated carbs ..they are late reacting and can not keep the gas charge % good it fluctuates horribly through the rpm zone ....and is also the reason the mixture screws have no effect at all .... me knowing you ....i know your carbs are clean and well put together...you having trouble here is confrontation to me how CV engineering is just poor excuse for carbs with very narrow finicky operating zone ... one day i am going to look into turning these cv carbs into strait cable operated carbs so i can be in control of these user unfriendly cv carbs

 

[ekvh]

I will buy the logic, but not real world use. In the real world cv carbs are good enough to spin the tires. A little slower reaction there is probably a good thing even if racing. The instant response you think you get with cable slide is instant, but unless you made a slow shift, the cv slide doesn't come down and if it does at upper rpm it is back up in a flash. Not looking for a quarrel, and admit I don't know this for fact, but it sure seems like this is what happens with mine.

 

[joedrum]

no argument eric i like talking about it ...i think a lot of my opinion comes from knowing both rather well as it pertains to oldwings ...stock cv carbs and dft 32-34 carb i am using ....i can tell you the pricipal is sound if it takes vacumm first before carb slide loves for gas ...and the system was set lean to begin with cause of epa .... plus the fact at low rpm vacume pulses are far apart it get to the point of just struggling to move when call on ..probably dose flutter and stumble ....

one day i am going to look into converting a 75 early rack to strait carbs ...who knows might not be that hard at all ...at this point i have no clue ... ...sheesh might be a real monsterwing mod

 

[joedrum]

on the same issue but different .. man i would sure like a set of those plug lights to test ... seems like cool product if it dose as claimed ...this is also on the table about weather this actually works :headscratch: :BigGrin: :BigGrin:

 

[aussiegold]

ekvh » Fri Jan 09, 2015 7:24 am[/url]":25i8uznm]
I will buy the logic, but not real world use. In the real world cv carbs are good enough to spin the tires. A little slower reaction there is probably a good thing even if racing. The instant response you think you get with cable slide is instant, but unless you made a slow shift, the cv slide doesn't come down and if it does at upper rpm it is back up in a flash. Not looking for a quarrel, and admit I don't know this for fact, but it sure seems like this is what happens with mine.

i tend to agree here, with this theory. especially after reading most of Mike Nixons carb stuff here.https://www.motorcycleproject.com/

the cv style carb does have different behaviour to other styles, but i believe that is exactly why Honda chose to use them. once you understand the way the different jet stages work ( which only came to me fully after reading the excellent Honda carb manual here)
and Mike Nixons stuff, then you will see that the idea is to actually smooth out fuel delivery , with smooth transition from idle to mid to wide open throttle.
in practice tho, just about all reviews of the Wing when new, mention jerkiness and slow speed 'snatch". this ( to me ) is just a quirk of the bike.
back to the topic tho, :wave: i think that the C5 is burning so efficiently with it's strong spark and multi firing , that it is burning all the fuel introduced at idle , and quickly compensates when extra mixture is added.
the white colour of the plugs bears this out, although Paul from C5 does say that white colour is normal for a C5.
when i make a video of the bike with the C5 using the colourtune , i will also do one of the LTD ( when it gets new head gaskets )
which has stock coils etc.

 

[IBAJIM]

aussiegold » Thu Jan 08, 2015 6:17 pm[/url]":2ftlaftj]

ekvh » Fri Jan 09, 2015 7:24 am[/url]":2ftlaftj]
I will buy the logic, but not real world use. In the real world cv carbs are good enough to spin the tires. A little slower reaction there is probably a good thing even if racing. The instant response you think you get with cable slide is instant, but unless you made a slow shift, the cv slide doesn't come down and if it does at upper rpm it is back up in a flash. Not looking for a quarrel, and admit I don't know this for fact, but it sure seems like this is what happens with mine.

i tend to agree here, with this theory. especially after reading most of Mike Nixons carb stuff here.https://www.motorcycleproject.com/

the cv style carb does have different behaviour to other styles, but i believe that is exactly why Honda chose to use them. once you understand the way the different jet stages work ( which only came to me fully after reading the excellent Honda carb manual here)
and Mike Nixons stuff, then you will see that the idea is to actually smooth out fuel delivery , with smooth transition from idle to mid to wide open throttle.
in practice tho, just about all reviews of the Wing when new, mention jerkiness and slow speed 'snatch". this ( to me ) is just a quirk of the bike.
back to the topic tho, :wave: i think that the C5 is burning so efficiently with it's strong spark and multi firing , that it is burning all the fuel introduced at idle , and quickly compensates when extra mixture is added.
the white colour of the plugs bears this out, although Paul from C5 does say that white colour is normal for a C5.
when i make a video of the bike with the C5 using the colourtune , i will also do one of the LTD ( when it gets new head gaskets )
which has stock coils etc.

Just for the heck of it, I would try a set of plugs that are one or two heat ranges cooler. The pics of your plugs at the other post look way too lean to me ( don't care if you are running a C5 ignition ) , but maybe the heat range is way too hot, instead.

 

[aussiegold]

IBAJIM » Sat Jan 10, 2015 1:40 am[/url]":61hit2ez]

aussiegold » Thu Jan 08, 2015 6:17 pm[/url]":61hit2ez]

ekvh » Fri Jan 09, 2015 7:24 am[/url]":61hit2ez]
I will buy the logic, but not real world use. In the real world cv carbs are good enough to spin the tires. A little slower reaction there is probably a good thing even if racing. The instant response you think you get with cable slide is instant, but unless you made a slow shift, the cv slide doesn't come down and if it does at upper rpm it is back up in a flash. Not looking for a quarrel, and admit I don't know this for fact, but it sure seems like this is what happens with mine.

i tend to agree here, with this theory. especially after reading most of Mike Nixons carb stuff here.https://www.motorcycleproject.com/

the cv style carb does have different behaviour to other styles, but i believe that is exactly why Honda chose to use them. once you understand the way the different jet stages work ( which only came to me fully after reading the excellent Honda carb manual here)
and Mike Nixons stuff, then you will see that the idea is to actually smooth out fuel delivery , with smooth transition from idle to mid to wide open throttle.
in practice tho, just about all reviews of the Wing when new, mention jerkiness and slow speed 'snatch". this ( to me ) is just a quirk of the bike.
back to the topic tho, :wave: i think that the C5 is burning so efficiently with it's strong spark and multi firing , that it is burning all the fuel introduced at idle , and quickly compensates when extra mixture is added.
the white colour of the plugs bears this out, although Paul from C5 does say that white colour is normal for a C5.
when i make a video of the bike with the C5 using the colourtune , i will also do one of the LTD ( when it gets new head gaskets )
which has stock coils etc.

Just for the heck of it, I would try a set of plugs that are one or two heat ranges cooler. The pics of your plugs at the other post look way too lean to me ( don't care if you are running a C5 ignition ) , but maybe the heat range is way too hot, instead.

Hmm, the heat range of the plugs is some thing i had not considered. ( didnt even think of it )
getting into an area i am not familiar with. i have not seen any posts with anybody having to either change plugs or re jet while running the C5. might have to confer with an expert. :BigGrin:

 

[aussiegold]

joedrum » Fri Jan 09, 2015 8:17 am[/url]":vfxn2l44]
on the same issue but different .. man i would sure like a set of those plug lights to test ... seems like cool product if it dose as claimed ...this is also on the table about weather this actually works :headscratch: :BigGrin: :BigGrin:

this product has been around a long long time. first i have ever used one though.

 

[IBAJIM]

aussiegold » Sat Jan 10, 2015 1:07 am[/url]":3tkdppi0]

IBAJIM » Sat Jan 10, 2015 1:40 am[/url]":3tkdppi0]

aussiegold » Thu Jan 08, 2015 6:17 pm[/url]":3tkdppi0]

ekvh » Fri Jan 09, 2015 7:24 am[/url]":3tkdppi0]
I will buy the logic, but not real world use. In the real world cv carbs are good enough to spin the tires. A little slower reaction there is probably a good thing even if racing. The instant response you think you get with cable slide is instant, but unless you made a slow shift, the cv slide doesn't come down and if it does at upper rpm it is back up in a flash. Not looking for a quarrel, and admit I don't know this for fact, but it sure seems like this is what happens with mine.

i tend to agree here, with this theory. especially after reading most of Mike Nixons carb stuff here.https://www.motorcycleproject.com/

the cv style carb does have different behaviour to other styles, but i believe that is exactly why Honda chose to use them. once you understand the way the different jet stages work ( which only came to me fully after reading the excellent Honda carb manual here)
and Mike Nixons stuff, then you will see that the idea is to actually smooth out fuel delivery , with smooth transition from idle to mid to wide open throttle.
in practice tho, just about all reviews of the Wing when new, mention jerkiness and slow speed 'snatch". this ( to me ) is just a quirk of the bike.
back to the topic tho, :wave: i think that the C5 is burning so efficiently with it's strong spark and multi firing , that it is burning all the fuel introduced at idle , and quickly compensates when extra mixture is added.
the white colour of the plugs bears this out, although Paul from C5 does say that white colour is normal for a C5.
when i make a video of the bike with the C5 using the colourtune , i will also do one of the LTD ( when it gets new head gaskets )
which has stock coils etc.

Just for the heck of it, I would try a set of plugs that are one or two heat ranges cooler. The pics of your plugs at the other post look way too lean to me ( don't care if you are running a C5 ignition ) , but maybe the heat range is way too hot, instead.

Hmm, the heat range of the plugs is some thing i had not considered. ( didnt even think of it )
getting into an area i am not familiar with. i have not seen any posts with anybody having to either change plugs or re jet while running the C5. might have to confer with an expert. :BigGrin:

Changing the plugs to a colder heat range would be at least a cheap & quick troubleshooting technique. But I still think you are running lean. Your float levels look acceptable to me, and even if they were off a bit, I don't think they would be causing your problem. IF you had a high idle, I would suspect a vacuum leak, but you said you have ruled this out.
Another thing I thought about after my first post is that you may have way too much spark advance. Is the vacuum advance working OK and holding vacuum ( no leaky diaphram ) ? Of course that wouldn't give you too much advance, but the vacuum leak would cause a lean condition. And I think I remember seeing something on another post ( I'm new here and have been browsing the old posts lately - I'm retired & a little snowbound this last week so I have had the time ) about missing the "rubber stop limiters" on the centrifugal advance. Do you have BOTH installed on yours ? If not, that would cause way too much advance. Of course, if the C5 ignition eliminates the centrifugal advance, that would eliminate a missing rubber limiter as the problem.

But, is there any way you can connect a timing light to measure the amount of advance you have ?? I know if the crankshaft timing cover is removed, oil will be expelled when the bike is running ( don't ask me how I know ! ). But maybe you can check it some other way.
Maybe at the end of a camshaft ( 1/2 the advance measured at the crankshaft ).

I think you have a gross problem causing your surging. You should be able to fix it once you get on the right track. Good luck ! I'm a little like you, I wouldn't give up until it was fixed.

 

[slabghost]

C5 is programmed advanced tied to rpm. There is no outside mechanical advance either weights or vacuum. Three sparks spaced at every cycle effectively burns all of the fuel charge. This leaves plugs very clean. Changing the heat range of the plugs is an interesting idea. I rather doubt there will be any noticeable change though.

 

[backyardtrouble]

I got to get that....Soon. :good:

 

[C5Performance]

Please allow me to jump in here for a moment. Then you can resume regular broadcast shows.

If you have stock heat range sparkplugs (resistor I hope), I suggest one heat range cooler for stock riding. Your combustion temps are higher with 3 sparks and we do recommend a cooler plug.
For anyone running extended high speed/high load you should go two heat ranges cooler. On the NGK brand sparkplugs that means a LARGER number (bigger number = cooler plug).

There should be no color on the sparkplug. Forget what you about ignitions. If you can't burn all the fuel with 3 sparks using our coils you stepped over the line.
If you want fuel economy leave the carbs alone. Light colored plugs after installed the C5 is a good thing. It means you aren't wasting fuel.

If you want maximum power then go ahead and jet it richer (I do) but rejet until the plug color JUST STARTS to change color and then stop!!!

On the GL1000 with stock carbs we see extreme lean readings on the dyno but from idle to about 3000 rpm it continues to drop into normal mixture readings.
Part of this is due to emissions testing requirements, and part has to do with how the mixture is measured and I would not worry about it unless you have a running issue.

I'm not a fan of CV carbs either, except on large heavy bikes it prevents a person from grabbing a handful of throttle and experiencing that bog we all know happens on mechanical slide carbs. Avoid this by getting the revs up before hammering the throttle (which instantly raises the slide all the way up).
With a light powerful bike like my XR650R it doesn't matter because it just breaks the rear wheel loose and doesn't bog at all no matter what you try.

 

[C5Performance]

One more thing I forgot to share.

Here is a chart showing lean mixtures are better for mileage and rich are best for performance.
A number smaller than 14.7 indicates rich and a number larger (say 16:1) indicates lean.

Here is the data from a stock good running Goldwing we dyno'd before installing a C5 (stock freshly rebuilt carbs, stock points ignition).
The air/fuel is very lean until 3100 rpm where it finally drops below 14.7 (idea mixture).

We do see a reduction in rich conditions after the C5 is installed, and I'm sure that indicates the effectiveness of multi sparking. We also see increases in torque using the C5 in extreme lean conditions. This is because a lean mixture tends to snuff out the flame too soon and multiple sparks can help keep the flame front burning.

s RPM x1000 hp ft-lbs Air/Fuel
0.33 2.30 16.99 38.79 18.00
0.55 2.40 17.72 38.77 18.00
0.76 2.50 18.76 39.41 18.00
0.97 2.60 19.99 40.38 16.94
1.17 2.70 21.19 41.22 15.94
1.38 2.80 22.21 41.66 15.38
1.58 2.90 22.80 41.30 15.06
1.78 3.00 23.69 41.47 15.17
1.98 3.10 24.61 41.69 14.45 <== cross over point of lean to rich
2.18 3.20 25.46 41.79 13.68
2.38 3.30 26.22 41.73 13.25
2.59 3.40 27.12 41.89 13.20
2.79 3.50 28.06 42.10 13.19
2.99 3.60 28.92 42.20 13.17
3.19 3.70 29.84 42.36 13.15
3.38 3.80 30.88 42.67 13.15
3.59 3.90 31.69 42.67 13.15
3.78 4.00 32.66 42.89 13.13
3.98 4.10 33.54 42.96 13.11
4.18 4.20 34.40 43.02 13.06
4.38 4.30 35.11 42.88 13.00
4.58 4.40 36.01 42.98 12.93
4.78 4.50 36.42 42.51 12.86
4.99 4.60 37.09 42.35 12.80
5.19 4.70 38.44 42.96 12.73
5.39 4.80 39.25 42.94 12.67
5.60 4.90 39.43 42.27 12.72
5.80 5.00 40.72 42.78 12.77
6.00 5.10 41.73 42.97 12.64
6.20 5.20 43.21 43.64 12.61
6.40 5.30 44.74 44.33 12.57
6.59 5.40 46.49 45.22 12.49
6.78 5.50 48.50 46.31 12.44
6.97 5.60 50.16 47.04 12.41
7.15 5.70 51.71 47.64 12.41
7.33 5.80 52.78 47.79 12.41
7.52 5.90 54.14 48.19 12.42
7.70 6.00 55.11 48.24 12.44
7.88 6.10 56.17 48.37 12.44
8.07 6.20 56.77 48.09 12.46
8.26 6.30 57.86 48.23 12.45
8.44 6.40 58.76 48.22 12.45
8.62 6.50 59.64 48.19 12.49
8.81 6.60 60.99 48.53 12.49
8.99 6.70 61.48 48.20 12.51
9.18 6.80 62.46 48.24 12.53
9.37 6.90 63.26 48.15 12.54
9.56 7.00 64.19 48.16 12.59
9.75 7.10 64.24 47.52 12.58
9.95 7.20 64.87 47.32 12.58
10.15 7.30 64.74 46.58 12.65
10.35 7.40 65.41 46.43 12.70
10.56 7.50 65.25 45.70 12.71
10.75 7.60 65.22 45.07 12.67
10.97 7.70 64.62 44.08 12.66
11.20 7.80 64.33 43.32 12.63
11.42 7.90 63.36 42.12 12.50

 

[slabghost]

Good stuff there!

 

[aussiegold]

here is a video i made of the Gunson Colortune in action on my blue 75. with C5 fitted. at the beginning i couldnt get a change in the flame colour. now it does, although maybe not as much as a stock system. now i am running one range colder spark plug ( DR9EA ) and also changed the air jets ( in the brass elbow on the side of carb ) from 110 size to 100 size. when it cools down a bit ( the weather ) i will get a test done on my LTD ( stock ignition system )
one interesting thing is that all the mixture screws are at different turns out. all more than 2 full turns out. one is almost three. but it idles very smoothly .

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yt6m35akQrA

[video]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yt6m35akQrA[/video]

 

[Ansimp]

Very nice Maurice :good:

 

[joedrum]

yep first ive seen that in action...

 

[C5Performance]

Excellent video clearly showing the change. Thank you!

 

[dan filipi]

Yes great video!

I might get me one of those, dang they're pricey.