Heating issue remains

[frenkeje]

Hello all,

I have been doing a lot of work since my last post on heating issue. I added copper tubing sections to prevent kinking. It seems like the engine stays cool for a good ten minutes on idle. After punching the gas a couple times.. responds well.. But, once it creeps up to midway mark on Heat gauge.. and about 11 minutes in.. it shoots up to 3/4 way up and is really remains almost H. Not sure if this normal. I have to check my antifreeze one more time to make sure it is topped off. I have a bunch of seafoam in gas tank right now with still premium fuel. I guess I am going to put theromstat back as it takes a little while longer to warm up the engine. I will have to make sure fluid level is perfect tomorrow do a test and will let you know unless any recommendations. Water Pump is working as far as I can tell. Radiator is located in front of vehicle. Hose length is about 6 ft there.. 6 ft back

Here is my bike setup:

 

[SteveA-wing]

With your mods, are you sure you're getting plenty of outside air to the radiator? If you are I guess my first question is whether your electric fan is coming on at the right temperature. For a test I would jump the contacts on the thermalswitch so the fan runs all the time, start the engine and check the temp again and see if you have the same result. BTW, your conversion looks great!

 

[frenkeje]

I will try that tomorrow. It just seems like it is on Cold for 4 or 5 minutes. Takes a bit to warm up without theromstat, which I love the idea of full flow through the engine and keeping this coolest possible. Then it warms up some.. and before you know it.. it is almost at H. Touch the Covers.. don't seem unbearable to touch. Back end is up when bike is tested. Both Radiator tubes feel warm to hot. Radiator feels warm to hot. Check the oil a minute after shut off.. and that is what feels really hot. It is between line 2 and 3. I wonder if Oil is being drawn up to oil cooler then instantly dropped back after shut off.. making it lean on oil running in system... but how do I tell. I read running too much oil is not good at all. Thanks for compliment. I love the goldwing engine. Wish I had reverse on this. Maybe some year I will find a salvaged 1500.. but this 1200 is running very good.. just concerned with this heating issue before I take it out for a 20 mile trip to State Patrol inspection coming up in 3 weeks. Any coolant tricks or brands that brings down the temp.. or Hard core safe Motorcycle oil to keep the engine cool. I know some great info was recommended on Amsoil.. which I am considering.. but wow.. $$$ per quart.

 

[joedrum]

now that i have seen the build im almost sure you have the feairo syndrome those six ft lines that run from front to back can not have any air in them what so ever at all if it dose then the pump will not move it and hotter it gets the whorst it gets......in a system of that much travel they sould be set up where water could be put in at the lowest point in the system on both sides and pushed out tallest points on both ends motor and radiator......

somehow your going to have to get the air out i did know how to do that but icant remember what i did ..... its late and i just got back from a 600 ml. trip maybe in the morning it will come to me..... anyway just the smallest bit of air will cause the pump to quit working on a system of this much travel......find somebody that has one of those pontiac feairos and ask them they sould know....maybe leave the cap off when you start it so that the system is not closed so the air has some place to escape
and keep ading coolant if you have to .....with the thermostat out this sould not take to long..... im guessing cause i still cant remember...

by the way i just love this custom wing and we just got to get this jewel on the road and doing fine :good: k: :yahoo: :music: :clapping: :shock: :mrgreen: i wish i could remember how to get the air out :headscratch:

 

[mcgovern61]

Joe is absolutely right, that distance is a long way to go for the water pump and any air will get trapped and cause overheating. Also, the pump is only rated for a specific head pressure (meaning the distance and amount of piping it can pump to and back) and this might be a stretch for the water pump.

 

[Omega Man]

Moved to correct forum.

~O~

 

[dan filipi]

I like it, and the color too!

Has it always run hot like this with the current setup?
Since the radiator is in front you should be getting plenty of air flow as long as the fan is coming on.
When it's cold, these engines can take 5 minutes to warm up to the point of opening the tstat.
I would be checking temps with a temp gun along the hoses and radiator to see if your getting flow.
When gauge is at the red line you should see over 220 degrees at the radiator upper fins.

Harbor Freight has a small non contact thermometer for 10 bucks now on sale. https://www.harborfreight.com/hand-tools ... 93983.html

 

[frenkeje]

I don't quite know how it ran last year. I have been working on this for 2 years. I bought the shell and engine from CA and shipped to WI 2 years ago. Always wanted a Bike/Trike... but new are $$$. Not having a clue about motorcycles.. besides owning a shadow 750 in High school before my dad found out I stored it at a friends house, I slowly got this running over the years. Built all controls as wiring was all snipped at bike. Hand clucth shifter with rod going back to bike, dash, pedals, etc. Had body work done, doors created and painted. .. something I didn't have knowledge on.. but think I have it now. I had no no instructions on build as this is a FireAero Trike. Tom Ingram, Fireaero owner has recently some instructions. As I have put it..I was right on with instructions.

About heating issue to date, I didn't test wires hoping to avoid diggin in there.. I kept running fluid and squeezing hoses and adding more about 5 times.. heat up cool down. I think I have it or close.

After 8 or so minutes in.. it will climb to about 60% hot.. then the fan kicks in... It seems like it holds steady at around 70 to 75% H after that and doesn't move past that.. Fan is keeping it cool. I did notice that the fan .. I think is pushing the air out through the radiator.. Where there is a small 1.5 ft by 3 ft space. The very tip front end of trike. The flow would be a lot better if it where to draw the air through it where there is a 3.5 by 3 ft space. I wonder if I can switch the fan blade. Also, I have a bunch of Seafoam and 20% gas left.. When it is cold.. is has a slight backfire or puffing sound in carbs..but when it gets warm.. it sounding the best I have ever heard it with no back fire. Another sync after pulling carbs and cleaning float bowls last night? I might have this running too rich as the return throttle doesn't hang.. but doesn't snap back. Not sure if this is normal either.

Anyway, does this seem normal given my design?

Also, the oil cooler fan when turned on.. maybe even makes it hotter by 3%. The fan is kicking warm air back to the engine.. but it is not hot air.. I would think it would help cool it. Maybe I have to switch that fan around.

Any advice is helpful... which All has been more than helpful. BTW, I really enjoy seeing pics of your Bikes.... Awes!

 

[mcgovern61]

A couple of things I noticed. Your cooling fan should be pulling the air through the radiator, not pushing if the radiator and fan is from a 1200. If you push air, the fan is not designed for maximum flow turning in that direction. (wires backwards?)

Secondly, have you checked the hose to your expansion tank on the back wall? (BTW - Normally, the expansion tank is above the radiator fill neck.) If that hose has come off inside the tank, you will suck air into the cooling system.

 

[Joep]

radiator in front?? room to flip fan to outside?? also where is the heat from fan dissapated ??? could also add in a smaller cooler rad ( heater core??) in the line going to the radiator for extra area.. and are you sure the gauge is correct?? shoot it witha hand held temp sensor gun.. verify the temps...

 

[joedrum]

with the thermostat out you sould be able to see the pump pushing the water around but if you cant get at to see i under stand.....

i still think its not moving the water

gerry right the fan sould be pulling the air though the radiator

if it were me id find a fan of considerable froce and put it front of trike blowing on the radiator and run it ....that way id know im getting plenty cooling air for the radiator....if it still gets hot this will comferm that the water is not moving enough to cool the motor...... i pretty much beleave its not....it may take longer to heat up but under these conditions it souldnt even get warm hardly....

if it comes out that its not moving the water thers several reasons it could be....somebody mention the lines on the reserve tank this needs to look at to make sure its not sucking in air there.....air in the lines as discussed before .....or air being put in system from a bad head gasket pushing air in the cooling system...
we just had an issue on 1200 that totaly stop cooling system from operating right .... this was a very small crack in the head .....a very small amount of air gets to the water pump causes it to miss a beat and thats it ....it will lose its prime so to speak and just spin the water heats up and boils and more air finds its way to the pump just from heat chasing the colder water thats not moving and it just gets whorst.... and all it takes is just alittle bit of air to get this process started

this could be very fusrating trying to figure exactly whats starting the proscess....

what gerry said about the pump not being enough to move the water could cause the proccess above without any air in the system as soon as the water in the motor starts to boil

just off the top of my head....i would be thinking electric pump of some kind in the lowest point in the system that could not suffer from losing prime because its at the lowest point.....maybe an electric fuel pump or something....if you could find something that could fill this role there would never be problem of pump not moving water because of air period. i dont know what the flow rate is on a perfectly running system but idont think it can be much...this seems like a very doable
option just thinking about it....

im so impressed by your story on this build i can tell your a lot like me ....i dont need a road map to do something even when im totaly egnorant to situation i wont be when im done ...i can tell you think that way its not always a plus but going after the unknown is a big thill in my book.

i almost fill like a part of this project :yahoo: :mrgreen:

 

[joedrum]

oh i forgot to mention that i think that the power your spending on the oil cooler would be enough to pump the water around and as ive mention before the goldwings allready cool the oil with a properly working cooling system. imsur you would have to eliminate the oil cooler if you went that way....you have to be close to the max on the electrics on this

the poor boy alt. set up makes a lot of sense on this build....

 

[frenkeje]

Thanks for the Advice and Info.

Here's where I am at. I mounted the reserve next to the Cap.. about an inch above the rad cap. Hose is shortened and put my 20 psi cap back on. I topped it off 2 more times to where after running it.. it remained full. Didn't need much.. but some. I switched my Oil cooler on it's side... line going to top.. line back to oil on bottom. Switched the wires around.. fan pushes air through rad away from engine. Also, changed the oil lines around as it appears the flow of the oil would enter both filter area and cooler then back to engine on right side of cooler mount. I put in Rotella 15w-40. Just don't have the scratch right now to try Amsoil.

I switched the wires around in the plug to the fan to avoid pulling fan. It works.. it pulls air now.

I started it up and at 1:30. Seemed like the engine had a little coughing in carbs for the 1st minute. About 5 minutes in.. the needle started to move. About 12 minutes in.. it was about half way cool. A couple revs and such.. About 15 minutes at idle.. it hit about 55 - 60 % and fan kicked on.. And it stayed there and krept up to about 65 - 70% and sat put for another 15 minutes until I shut it off.

So.. I think I have it. :salute: It's working the best I have seen it.

I feel better about the the 18" bendable copper Gas Furnance hose then attached to a rubber hose to keep the hoses a non kinking curve around oil cooler from bottom inlet.. and one on top to curve down and hold the top hose a straight non sagging direct shot to the radiator. I think this is helping the flow. But, the burping and making sure the everything is perfect on your advice to get this working.

Does it sound like I have it? Also, shoud I attempt to put the thermostat back in to allow the bike to warm up sooner? I get a slight and faint pop until it warms up. I may have to sync it again.. I might be running lean.. I was going to let the 10% gas left in there run out as it has a bunch of seafoam in it... I am wondering if that is causing Lean mixture.

I am feeling good about where I am at right now. Could not have gotten here without you all's expertise. Now for the last pesky speedo ratio adapter to figure out and this will be complete... Besides the side shrouds I would like to build to direct air into engine area... Someday.

Oh, forgot to mention.. I was getting 14.6 at battery.. now I am getting 15.6.. fan was running.. but. is this a concern?

 

[joedrum]

:yahoo: :yahoo: :mrgreen: this is good progress good job......i would not take put the thermostat in after all the trouble of getting to this point i wouldnt do anything to stop flow on purpose .....besides with all the travel and hose and stuff the thermostat would cause stress on all this .....maybe later when things prove confidense in the system.....

now the time for road test !!!!! you have no way of knowing how everything going to work on the road ..... when you put gas in it put in 8oz of ATF oil automatic transmission fluid per 5 gallions gas it dosnt have to be perfect ratio this will help the stumbling on warmup and how it runs ...i wont go into why now just do it theres no down side.

cant wait to here about the test ride ..... :yahoo: :yahoo: arty: :clapping: :music: :music: :beer: :beer: :yes: :mrgreen:

 

[dan filipi]

About 15 minutes at idle.. it hit about 55 - 60 % and fan kicked on.. And it stayed there and krept up to about 65 - 70% and sat put for another 15 minutes until I shut it off.

It sounds like your getting there but I think taking it for a test run is rushing it.
I'm just trying to help prevent damaging something.

Still something not right, if your getting adequate coolant flow the fan should turn off within 5 minutes.
It's obvious something isn't right with the flow.

I wonder, is the radiator cap and upper hose the highest point in the cooling system?
I ask because in order to get all the air out, normally it escapes thru the cap when filling but if not the highest point then we have to figure another way to get the air out. Also, the water pump may not be capable of pulling water up hill so where the radiator bottom is at and how the lower hose is positioned will affect it alot.
A sketch of the frame, engine and radiator and how the hoses are run with elevations would help alot.

I have a different opinion than Joe on the thermostat. I suggest putting it back in because the little restriction it does put on the flow the system needs in order to pump properly and remove heat from the cylinders. Ultimately you'll need it anyway, you've shown it takes way too long to warm up without it.

15.6 volts is too high. Anything over 14.8 volts will reduce the life of the battery.
Maybe not much of a concern right now though. I'd be more concerned about getting bugs out of the cooling system.
Check the grounds and plugs at the stator and regulator.
How's the condition of the stator plug by the battery?
Common for the pins to corrode and overheat. Most bypass the plug all together.

 

[joedrum]

dan brings up some good points....im not saying never to put back the thermostat but i think youve got it working right ...at this time with the thermostat in there would a chance that with the water not moving that some air could chase the colder water and get to the pump and cause it to quit .... with it out the constant flow of the water will lessen the likelyhood of the any air causing a problem for the test run....it true that it takes longer to warm up and it also takes longer to cool down with constant flow but the reality is all this is the difinistion to consistancy and that what i like about no thermostat on my own bike ...ive never had a problem of it getting to hot ever....to me this allows me to use hotter plugs and adjustments to keep consistant with the no thermostat ....and yes i do let my bike warm up longer this can only be better for the bike and a good rutine to get into .

but in this case on your build with every thing being stretched the hoses , the pump capasity, the thermostat could be like a nail in the coffin to this build right now ....it makes no sense to change something thats gotten you the best results so far....at lesast not right now....take a test drive and keep your eyes open to everthing going on

thats my opinion for this moment in time on the next step to take.....

 

[frenkeje]

Wanted to update you all on my progress.

Haven't been able to get to my testing in a while as I have another little rider on board.
I started the engine a couple times and only had it idle for about 5 to 7 mins. Temp Gauge was just above C. Improvement yet. It really isn't a great test versus the 20 min.. but It did seem to stay put around a 1/4 after 7 mins. I also took it out for a couple spins around the block. It remained under half way point and this was 1st. I mounted the overflow higher and changed my oil cooler around again. Only difference to now from last time was that the overflow change and it seems to have sucked a little more fluid into system. maybe 2 cups.

The inspection is Weds. and I feel confident things are running good. I will get a good feel that day as it is a 23 mile ride there, 23 back..well.. I might get lost.. right? 40 miles back. I will reply and let you know how it went and findings. Then it's a waiting game on license plate. I also will post up a picture of coolant setup and Oil cooler shrouds I built that are at a friends being painted same color. This will put it to 3 oil coolers on the thing. The side shrouds also hid the seating and some underneaths.. so it looks sleeker.

Weds. Wish me luck. I will update you all.

 

[joedrum]

wow im pulling foryou!!!!!!!!!!!!!sounds great so far

 

[BigAndrew]

Its a bummer i missed this thread till now.. Oh well... I gotta say, I LOVE the look of that thing :clapping: :clapping: :mrgreen:

I have a bunch of seafoam in gas tank right now with still premium fuel.

Im sure you put fresh gas in it since the first post, I just wanted to point something out, I know this wasnt the main cause of the over heating but the added combination of premium gas with too much Seafoam could of added to the over heating, I would try running regular 87 octane without the seafoam to see if that makes a difference

 

[frenkeje]

Wow.. what a week. After double checking the Wisconsin vehicle requirements for Type 2.. I found a missed off burb about every Type 2 vehicle needs a windshield wiper 2 days before inspection. Finished installing one 3am before my 8:30 inspection time.

Here's how the vehicle road. It was a about 75 degrees out and the 1 minute into my trip.. the speedometer started to squeel. Never did that. pulled over.. reached under and unscrewed it. It doesn't have the correct ratio adapter on it yet.. Need to test it at 1 to 1 and have one made. I will just use a gps unit for speed. So.. after that.. my concern was doubting my work on this vehicle.

Ride went very smooth. Drove well, responded well.. it was pretty cool. . Except radiator conditions were OK. It never went about 80% to H except one time. Problem is.. that most of my ride was 35 to 45 mph. Early Traffic and a lot of stop and go. The Temp Dial was about 60% to H for the Majority of Time. The fan kicked on a bunch of times. More so on the way back. The fan definately kept it stable and evently after riding kicked off. But, it seems like it kicked on more often then not... and when driving.. the temp did not drop as fast as I would have liked.

The time it got pretty warm was when I punched it a bit.. and as it was around 65% with fan. I kicked on my oil cooler fan. I just think that this is drawing engine heat through the oil cooler and making it warmer. So, I might take that off and mount it below the regular Rad fan and have it as a manual backup.

Regular gas, no seafoam.. and I haven't added ATF yet.

I think this is where I am at. I think it is working good, but the air flow is poor. The pictures show the front, and between the 2 turn signal lights .. in the middle is the fan underneath. Other fireaeros have a 5 x 14 inch hole cut out in front between the two lights with a grill. Another I have seen has a large square hole cut out in front of the head lights with a grill.

I really don't want to cut anything in. I am wondering if I try a fiberglassed flap below.. about 2 inch in Height.. then surround to the ends of the lights.. to have the wind kick up to front of the Rad a bit more.

Anyway, It passed. He said I needed a ridged bumper.. more out of steel ..can be under fiberglass..(told him I can have one on tongiht).. wiper a must.. and thinking he was going to fail me. he gave me a wink and said.. it's passed.. send this in to title and research for plates. You can bet I had that out in the mail that day.

Once plates are in.. I am out for a ride.

Any feed back on my experience with Radiator and driving would be Awesome! Also, what do you think about a waterline wetter treatment for the antifreeze. Some say it reduces heat by 7%.

https://www.e30m3project.com/e30m3perfor ... wetter.htm