new new ignition option for 1000 ignitions

[joedrum]

https://www.c5ignitions.com/honda-ignitions.html

seems to be pricey but its seems to have the complete package and programable ...im not sure ...maybe others can expand on this ...im not to sharp in the laptop controled iggy set ups and capabilities

 

[AApple]

Kinda hard to ride with a lappytop in yer lap, eh Joe? :moped: :mrgreen:

Holy MOLY!! I just looked...they are a wee bit "pricey"!!! :shock:

 

[joedrum]

yes it is way out of my orbit ...and the laptop i cant hardly operate when not riding ...hmmmm sounds like i have no buisness with it ...but some might ....

 

[Anonymous]

Overpriced.
...for us at least
Most of what they are doing has already been done on the forums.
The tower coils were brought out in the open via Dave a couple years ago.
The optical stuff isn't new and explained in the forums.
And multi-discharge is cheap for all of us now.

They too have a "one plate fits all" approach. Pick the number of pick-ups, clock them, drill for mounting, 2 or 4 cylinder wheel and... SHA-ZAMM! We in business...

Street applications will find no benefit in using optical vs. Hall (magnetic) triggering.

@ $450.00 they are re-couping their development costs, ...probably on a 2.5 multiplication factor. Maybe even higher.
You and I can put the same thing together for less than $100.00. If you're really thrifty, sub-$50.00 is a truth.

 

[joedrum]

hmmmmm....ok cm i want your opinion on this setup ...as it seems thrifty in price and hugely user friendly https://sohc4shop.com/catalog/product_in ... 200db3b70f
id like to know if it could use good coils like dyna and no ballist resistor

 

[Anonymous]

That Hondaman set-up is real popular.
Nothing I can say that hasn't been said.
I'll say any amplifier is a good amplifier and better than no amplifier at all.

I'll also say: play around with a Dyna "S" at the coils without a amplifier to isolate the heat and load off of the modules and you'll wish you had a amplifier in-line. That Dyna "S" is a terrible design IMO.

Ballasting the coil(s) depends on the trigger. I haven't used Hondamans set-up so, I can only go by what he suggests and what others have successfully done aside from his suggestions. He built it. He would know its limits.

I know this: I'll never trigger another set of coils without some form of 1) isolation and 2) amplification.

I don't know what he's using in there, but it must be a common transistor in a discrete set-up and needs to dissipate heat to some degree. I see it in a plastic housing. Whatever he has got, it seems to work without mention of heat related failure from what I've read over time. Can't ask for more than that...

 

[joedrum]

hmmmm i think this is what im going to use on the next 1200 mod i do ...the ability of having electronic ignition triggered by points one can actualy work on ...plus if box gose bad you just have to unplug it and plug back the stock point wiring and go is a huge advantage to not get stranded somewhere ....

 

[dan filipi]

What is this "amplification" you mention?
Where is it in the system and what is it's purpose?

 

[Anonymous]

Well, given that most coils are low-resistance primary input coils, I'm taking advantage of the tranistors that are capable of controlling them way beyond what my original ignition set-up was capable of doing.
I can get the kind of consistancy that Honda only dreamed about back in '78.
I can get deadly-accurate triggering that is conditioned by the time it gets to the primary input of a set of new low-resistance coils. I can control and define the coils input however I want it to be.
This is the gift of 35 years of advancement in technology. And it's inexpensive today.

Apparently the Hondaman piece is just passing the signal through amplified and unaltered; desingned for use with factory set-ups. He's just driving the coils harder as I see it. He's just working the primary side. A good start he gives us all. Take it and run with it.

I approach the ignition as a total system; primary and secondary. Because what goes in must come out.

 

[dan filipi]

Well, given that most coils are low-resistance primary input coils, I'm taking advantage of the tranistors that are capable of controlling them way beyond what my original ignition set-up was capable of doing.
I can get the kind of consistancy that Honda only dreamed about back in '78.
I can get deadly-accurate triggering that is conditioned by the time it gets to the primary input of a set of new low-resistance coils. I can control and define the coils input however I want it to be.
This is the gift of 35 years of advancement in technology. And it's inexpensive today.

Apparently the Hondaman piece is just passing the signal through amplified and unaltered; desingned for use with factory set-ups. He's just driving the coils harder as I see it. He's just working the primary side. A good start he gives us all. Take it and run with it.

I approach the ignition as a total system; primary and secondary. Because what goes in must come out.

Amplified and conditioned in what way?
Voltage?
Current?
Predictable signal?

Just trying to understand what exactly is the benefit here since as I understand it, the electronic pickup of Dyna and the 1100's is sending a signal in time every time.
The coils are very weak as compared to modern day systems but that's easily upgraded with better coils and improving the primary feed as with a relay.

 

[Anonymous]

Amplification, Attenuation and Isolation.

Just topical points:
Amplification negates sacraficing the trigger by taking the load off of it.
Attenuation limits peak voltage and spikes.
Isolation between trigger and coil eliminates trigger failure.

Power transistors combined with any number of todays ignition chips allow finely detailed tailoring of the three points above, either in a predetermined map or one that is programmable, or continuously programmable via a computer.

Mechanical advancers are nice. They limit what I want to do though so I'm moving to electronic advance.
I want adjustable dwell. I want it determined by event.
Same with coil load and saturation. I want it determined by event.

And being most controllers convert analog input to digital output signalling, we can shape and time what hits the coil. What goes in comes out. I need a clean and consistant spark to happen at the plug every time it jumps the gap, especially at rpm and under load.

I've 5 inputs of nitrous oxide gas on 2 seperate stages of triggering. I need total control of my ignition.

I cannot run that much nitrous on a factory ignition.

 

[Anonymous]

For me, it's really a safety issue; this importance of ignition control. The nitrous will take my bike out of commission if I don't think in terms of safety to the combustion chamber. A detonation out-of-time, just once, will cost me more than I want to expend.

I'm a "closet safety"-type though.

Kinda like my favorite jackets.

Looks good day or night, ...black, ...you know, got the Goldwing-thing happening:

Yeah, ...then let some lights hit it @ Midnight when the fool driving can't see a tail light out in the middle of nowhere:

Safety. It's a "all-around" thing with me and mine. Most just don't know it 'til they need to:

This pattern includes everything about my 'Wing. It's currently as Bullet-Proof as I can make it.

 

[joedrum]

wow thats a neat jacket ....nitrous....thats just one step down from nuclear fussion .....ive seen several that ran good they were all single carb setups ....none stayed together ....the one that was on video ran like hooch on a single vw carb ...so im sure what your saying is totally true ...i think its just to much on boxer crankshaft if like you said that power gets released in a bad spot ....bang its done ...this will be interesting to follow this path your going on the upmost safety involved project

 

[dan filipi]

CM85 » Tue Feb 12, 2013 12:22 pm[/url]":1g9o6cle]
Overpriced.
...for us at least
Most of what they are doing has already been done on the forums.
The tower coils were brought out in the open via Dave a couple years ago.
The optical stuff isn't new and explained in the forums.
And multi-discharge is cheap for all of us now.

They too have a "one plate fits all" approach. Pick the number of pick-ups, clock them, drill for mounting, 2 or 4 cylinder wheel and... SHA-ZAMM! We in business...

Street applications will find no benefit in using optical vs. Hall (magnetic) triggering.

@ $450.00 they are re-couping their development costs, ...probably on a 2.5 multiplication factor. Maybe even higher.
You and I can put the same thing together for less than $100.00. If you're really thrifty, sub-$50.00 is a truth.

Hmm, sub-$50 eh?

Maybe you could link us to these forum discussions and parts to put this together?
I haven't seen them, may be I'm looking in the wrong places but I am interested to learn more.

 

[joedrum]

id say that a lot of big talk ...the whole idea that the hall effect doesnt control the heat issue at all ...makes optical with advance cures and coil control better than all systems is huge .....a dyna S ignition is totally on the opposite end and has huge heat problems at idle

 

[dan filipi]

joedrum » Sun Jun 30, 2013 10:06 am[/url]":12h3ef23]
id say that a lot of big talk ...

Agreed.

 

[C5Performance]

Joedrum, i am not trying to start arguements but every forum has a few guys who "blanket slam" new products and ideas. That always annoyed me and i tend to bark back.
Hall Effect sensors (magnets) have a 7 degree swing in trigger time, light beams dont. Our trigger tracks crank rotation 90 times per revolution. I may have over spoken on this one...the hall effect ignitions you currently use track it how often? More than 90??
I need to learn more...this is all relatively new to me yet. I encourage your discussions and would love to even work with you on a kit if you'd be open to it!

 

[dan filipi]

C5Performance » Sun Jun 30, 2013 11:14 am[/url]":4x9nsdyi]
Joedrum, i am not trying to start arguements but every forum has a few guys who "blanket slam" new products and ideas. That always annoyed me and i tend to bark back.
Hall Effect sensors (magnets) have a 7 degree swing in trigger time, light beams dont. Our trigger tracks crank rotation 90 times per revolution. I may have over spoken on this one...the hall effect ignitions you currently use track it how often? More than 90??
I need to learn more...this is all relatively new to me yet. I encourage your discussions and would love to even work with you on a kit if you'd be open to it!

No arguments, only discussions and hopefully let's keep the opinions out of it.

This discussion (and questioning) is to show us all what actually IS out there and what CAN be done.
I know we can all dream about the possibilities by mixing parts here and there but let's hear what can actually be done.

Much like the old saying, "without pics it never happened". Well to me without links to compatible products it's not possible.

Fyi, I bumped this thread because I questioned the validity of what cm85 was talking about.

 

[Anonymous]

dan filipi » Sun Jun 30, 2013 12:27 pm[/url]":295glmhd]
Fyi, I bumped this thread because I questioned the validity of what cm85 was talking about.

Forgot about this thread, Dan. Sorry.
Ok, ...
Well, I'm currently putting together a new ignition for the daily rider '78.
I don't attack anything new, C5. I encourage everyone to try something new.
Optical Ignitions are not new. They may be somewhat new to the market for a GL1000 but not new to me.
As you know, many Japanese manufactures have been using optically triggered sensors for ignition timing for some time now. Their spares have been on the market as well. Those spares are inexpensive, ...as you know they are.

I'm building a optically triggered system for my '78 that will be amplified with programmable electronic advance sent to individual coils.
I've other sub-systems for it. I may incorporate multi-strike capability. I haven't decided yet. It may not be needed right now. Since I use Nitrous Oxide, I want complete control over my ignition system. Certainly you can understand that?

Should I have waited for your system? I had no idea you or your Company existed.

I have approached Pazon Ignitions, ...though in the past. We were talking of bringing the GL1000 system back. I eventually chose to work on my own.

A basic optical trigger can be had for nothing if actually sought. For not much more if needed to buy. Backing plates are everywhere. Modifying (or duplicating a blank for drilling) one for mounting the trigger is simple enough. Amplifiers are inexpensive as well. All from factory parts if need be. Inexpensive.

I picked-up a set of coils that will get used for this. $20 from eBay. I have a box of pick-ups from various parts bikes that have passed through my hands. I've also various ignitors, CDI boxes, pulse generators, electronic modules of all sorts, etc. to choose from.

I do question most in their voltage claims though. Anyone claiming 50Kv or higher under actual operating conditions (meaning as the bike is ridden) really needs to prove it. Marketing rarely reaches reality.
I do have 22Kv at idle with the '78 though. That's a really good number as you know, ...for a daily rider.

____

VFR800 COILS:

 

[dan filipi]

Well good for you cm85, I hope you do in fact bring it all together and make it work as cheaply as your claiming but just as I asked for a picture from you of the stator driven external alternator after swearing to confidentiality and never getting a reply from you, this too sounds like just talk.

Seriously, if your going to make claims let's see whatchya got. This forum is all about helping each other out. Are you not on the same page?