so what knock is it

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crowesnest3

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I have been trying to source an engine knock for awhile now. Rythmatic to the rpms, mostly under load, currently "quiets" down around 55+, sourcing it with the "screwdriver" method "knock" seems to be most apparent to the rear of block vicinity of stator/clutch/starter. Have newly this spring replaced water pump, hose, thermostat, timing belts, adjusted valves, syncd carbs, pulled starter last year and cleaned the electronics up, installed new fused solenoid. I have double checked that the stator bolt is tight and it certainly has gotten some use completing some of the above procedures. I have recently drained out the oil after putting on roughly 350 miles ,which did include some high rev shifting, drained the oil through one of my lacquer filter cones ( woodworker and custom finisher ) looking for metal filings/flakes ... nada ... also surveyed new oil filter found 3 small metal/silver flakes not much bigger than the "pearl" flakes that I use for "pearl" finishes. Motor smooth and strong, clutch is right there and no problems going thru the gears ... other than the wings trans is kinda "clunky" anyway. Whatever it is doesn't seem to affect the running of the motor or drive train, BUT, the mystery knock has got to be metal on metal, which can only over time wear something out. I'm open to any and all ideas. I have already rec'd a variety of them in other forums but still haven't figured it out and anybody out there, maybe especially a wing owner, who has explored the "mystery knock" on a forum of wing owners, know that there seems to be a lot of unexplained knocks that we learn to live with cuz they remain a mystery, till possibly the motor is totally opened up for heart surgery ... not that!!? Was thinking anything with the starter? Maybe pull it just to take a look, check on the chain connection ... starter works fine since I went through the electronics and solenoid..... OK, your turn ....Crowe...............Oh yeah, think I'm up to 4 posts now, almost qualify to know the secret hand shake! :Egyptian:
 
Yep, we even have a (mystery) engine knock thread. viewtopic.php?p=8248#p8248

Mine sounds much like you describe but different location maybe.
It sounds much like a dull thud like tapping on the valve cover with the butt of a screwdriver but much duller and lower in pitch.

It is completely quiet when cold then starts once warm.
Sitting in the garage I can hear it with rapid accelerations and under load and engine load "floating" on the road. Very loud sometimes when downshifting to 3rd to pass.

Myself and a few members here have been chasing this for a few years.
Sure would like to figure it out.
I've had the engine open and nothing jumps out as causing it.
 
crowesnest3":2749rtup said:
I have been trying to source an engine knock for awhile now. Rythmatic to the rpms, mostly under load, currently "quiets" down around 55+, sourcing it with the "screwdriver" method "knock" seems to be most apparent to the rear of block vicinity of stator/clutch/starter. Have newly this spring replaced water pump, hose, thermostat, timing belts, adjusted valves, syncd carbs, pulled starter last year and cleaned the electronics up, installed new fused solenoid. I have double checked that the stator bolt is tight and it certainly has gotten some use completing some of the above procedures. I have recently drained out the oil after putting on roughly 350 miles ,which did include some high rev shifting, drained the oil through one of my lacquer filter cones ( woodworker and custom finisher ) looking for metal filings/flakes ... nada ... also surveyed new oil filter found 3 small metal/silver flakes not much bigger than the "pearl" flakes that I use for "pearl" finishes. Motor smooth and strong, clutch is right there and no problems going thru the gears ... other than the wings trans is kinda "clunky" anyway. Whatever it is doesn't seem to affect the running of the motor or drive train, BUT, the mystery knock has got to be metal on metal, which can only over time wear something out. I'm open to any and all ideas. I have already rec'd a variety of them in other forums but still haven't figured it out and anybody out there, maybe especially a wing owner, who has explored the "mystery knock" on a forum of wing owners, know that there seems to be a lot of unexplained knocks that we learn to live with cuz they remain a mystery, till possibly the motor is totally opened up for heart surgery ... not that!!? Was thinking anything with the starter? Maybe pull it just to take a look, check on the chain connection ... starter works fine since I went through the electronics and solenoid..... OK, your turn ....Crowe...............Oh yeah, think I'm up to 4 posts now, almost qualify to know the secret hand shake! :Egyptian:
Click to expand...
Well it sounds maybe like a rod bearing. A rod bearing usually doesn't knock when the engine is pulling but will knock the loudest when you allow the engine to float, not pulling or holding back. On my 79 wing you could here the rods knock until the oil pressure came up. Maybe try pulling one spark plug wire of at a time and see if the knock goes away.
 
I've got a lot to do to get ready for Canada next year, finding this problem is the main thing.

As far as the valve train goes, I've swapped cams and heads with no change.
It would stand to reason the noise isn't coming from the cam only for that reason but it's still open as a possibility since all the swaps were old worn in parts also.

About the only things I can do at this point is have both heads miked and machined by a pro shop.
This would include valves and springs done right like I used to have done on auto engines.

I've been swapping cams with 75-77 1000 cams and with perfect condition 1200 cams, no change.
What has remained the same is springs and valves, I haven't miked the cam journals.

I've had the engine split and miked mains, all within spec.
I have not checked piston pins.

This engine (and another with the same knock) has low oil pressure.
Oil pump was miked, within spec.

There's got to be something I've missed.

I plan to tear down a donor 83 engine to clean it up, a lot of rust inside even the starter clutch is frozen.
With this tear down I'm going to hopefully be able to assemble one good engine.

I'll be posting a wanted for a good, KNOWN GOOD 83 engine in hopes to avoid all this.
The parts and time needed add up quick.
 
Welcome to the madness. Pulling one plug at a time is a good idea to isolate but can be troublesome with the plug caps on these old machines. You don't say if this is a high mileage well used machine or low mileage machine that sat for long periods. Valve springs weaken over long periods of being held compressed. Valve rockers and arms wear over time. Did you check for rocker play when you reset your valves? Have you tried a different weight oil? Have you reset your air/fuel mix screws on the carbs? Did you look for or see any odd wear on the cam lobes?
 
wow, don't know whether I should feel good that I'm part of the crowd or cry .... the knocking sounding like its from the valve train cover is familiar, but, its not there when using the "screwdriver" hearing piece. Definitely rear of block, stator, starter, clutch ------?? Really at its best when under load, although its there very faintly in idle....thats how the "screwdriver" can be used. My 80 1100, just cracked 26300, got it with 5k, also have run compression test and it runs 173 -179. After last oil dump which was only to look for metal, I upped the oil to Rotella 15/40 and even threw in a 1/2 pint STP. Shifts better, but knock, knock, knock. Valve train seems just fine and will admit to doing them probably 4 times and I think I'm really getting the hang of it for the right adjustment, barely any tappet noise just enough to know its solid tappets. The d*** knock actually was there last year and I thought it was the bad water pump, which it was and has been replaced. Before I learned my lesson some wise and qualified wing mechanic (????) fixed my coolant leak with a 10mm bolt! Anyway did get some water into the oil .... checking things this spring, in my "while I'm at it" mode noticed some "milk" around a head bolt #4, found it and a couple others were not torqued to spec. "milk" ceased with the torque adjustment. Also, syncd the carbs this past weekend using real vacuum guages, not hoses filled with oil ... thats another recent learning experience! Gotta check out the thread mentioned here about what was it the "knockers club"? .....have nothing against knockers! ...... Crowe
 
The knock I mention in that thread is most noticeable in the hot Summer months. In fact it's back this Summer. What does "that" tell us? Hear the knock when accelerating when it's 105F, can't get it to make that noise no matter how hard I run her when it's 60F. Might be in my head but it seams worse just before an oil change(Summertime).

~O~
 
Omega Man":oe9min6e said:
The knock I mention in that thread is most noticeable in the hot Summer months. In fact it's back this Summer. What does "that" tell us? Hear the knock when accelerating when it's 105F, can't get it to make that noise no matter how hard I run her when it's 60F. Might be in my head but it seams worse just before an oil change(Summertime).

~O~
Click to expand...
Off the top of my head (and there really isn't much left inside there anyway :smilie_happy: ) the oil viscocity is thinning in the hotter temps because the radiator can only bring the coolant temp down to ambient air temps which in this case is 105 degrees. At 105 degrees, the engine itself is running warmer (hotter if you will) than when the coolant can be taken down lower. The reality is, the radiator isn't bring the coolant down to 105 degrees, it only brings the coolant down a certain percentage compared to ambient air temp. It is likely that the coolant is running at about 198 degrees on average at it's lowest temp returning to the engine in 105 ambient air.

This is causing the internal engine temp to more than likely run higher since the oil is cooled via the block heat exchange and the bock is running hotter. That causes the oil to thin out more (lower viscocity) and less lubricant at the bearings, wrist pins, etc.....If your knock is from any of the components listed, it could be that it is caused by low viscosity oil. Every oil has an ambient air temp rating for this reason.
 
I wandered thru the earlier mentioned link/thread pretty much devoted to "knockers" ... pretty scarey stuff, gotta say that some of the sound videos available sure sounded similar to my own. What I realized this morning ,thinking about this , is that rarely have I seen that somebody has reposted that they had fixed the knock or figured out what it was! We got a large contingent of fellow wingers riding around with mystery knocks that don't seem to be hindering the performance of the bike, just provides an annoyance, especilly to any rider who has any gearhead in him. Is this maybe somekind of wingers secret? Shhh ... but gold wings knock! Kinda like the Oh, its a Harley, of course its leaking oil ........ actually if memory serves me the old Triumphs did the same thing. I really encourage anybody interested to link into this "knocker" thread and read the multitude of stories and listen to the sound videos, quite an experience. There are stories from our fellows that have totally torn the motor down to the last nut, found nothing amiss, rebuilt to find the same knock. All of this just makes me want to find it more. Its really is hard to ignore and blissfully ride on down the road and think that no problem, sounds like hell, but won't blow up ..... food for thought ...Crowe
 
Omega Man":1amiunwk said:
mcgovern61":1amiunwk said:
10w40 is OK according to the manual, but it also lists 20w50 at the top when you exceed 100 F. With older worn engines, I would be inclined to go with a higher viscocity oil in those ambient air temps.

I run 20/50 year round.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...

That may be true, but it doesn't change the fact that when your ambient temps are higher and there is wear and tear on the engine, it may still just be lower viscocity from the heat and thinning oil causing clearance in the tolerances.
 

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