T-belt...Cam timing theory?

While replacing the belts on 83 Interstate, I found the cam gear on the left side (2 & 4) was 1 tooth retarded. So I double checked my T1 mark, and the cam gear on the other side (1 & 3) was spot on. Rotated 360 degrees twice and lined up the marks again to find the same results. Then I started looking for some way it could be a half tooth off due to perspective, wear, or lack of perfection, etc. Sure looked a tooth slow to me. So I marked the belts and removed them, transfered the marks to the new belts and installed them. That one cog still looked to be a tooth off from the mark on the back cover. I rotated the engine again 2 revolutions and still this mark bothered me. So then I loosened the tensioner and moved that gear one tooth ahead. Rotated 2 revolutions one more time and lined up on the T1 mark. Now everything looks much better and I feel much gooder.
I'm in the process of replacing the valve stem seals so I'm not ready to start the engine yet. But I was sitting here swilling my coffee this morning and wondering what effect this would have? My 82 Standard runs pretty sweet, I think. But in that comparison, this 83 Interstate has always had a little "poppety-spit" at idle. Hard to describe. Like the exhaust blowing erratic bubbles. Not bad, but noticable to me and my son. It seemed to run out ok on the road. I haven't ridden it hard because I needed to change the tires, belts, maintenence, ect. since I just got it. Anyone seen this before? Any thoughts on how this would affect running? Will I be pulling the belt cover off that side again? I still have the radiator out and the covers off right now, so somebody talk to me. Does the magic 8 ball think I'm good on this?

your lucky some wings will run one tooth off some wont ive seen it both ways and is probably why they got rid of it ....but dont take my word for it make sure that the valves dont hit .....plugs out .....on center stand and in fifth gear to rotate the motor carefuly to make sure nothing is hitting .....this is not good on valve seats when ran like this so if it dosent run alot better after the timing change you might have to reseat the valves or just do it now .....while changing the oil seals your in up to your chin anyway might as well go under and hold your breath for awhile... :smilie_happy: :mrgreen:

joedrum":3fkboo7a said:

.....this is not good on valve seats when ran like this so if it dosent run alot better after the timing change you might have to reseat the valves or just do it now .....while changing the oil seals your in up to your chin anyway might as well go under and hold your breath for awhile... :smilie_happy: :mrgreen:

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Are you saying to pull the heads?

No need to pull the head I can see but I would do a compression check before starting it because if your one tooth off the compression will be low.

Hopefully it was a PO that set it one tooth off and you just matched that first go 'round but a compression check should tell the true deal.

I intensionally set a cam one tooth off once for grins which resulted in a lower idle speed and acceleration was slower.
The exhaust does sound different, I think something like you described, it's been awhile.
BTW, no valves kissed the piston when I did that.

not realy at this point id just try to go the way you are .....pulling the heads will require head gaskits and if it were me id do just what your doing ....with it poping and sputtering like you were discribeing makes me think shooting fired gas up the intake or out exhast and that only happens when the valves are slightly open and only get worst with running .....the longer it runs like that ...one thooth off....but ive seen if caught soon enough no problem .....when you get it all back together and timing right you can check compression and if close all the way around your probably okay ....and if not running a whole lot better it might get better with running it timed right .....if after running a long time and it dont get better thats when i would go for a head job only then .....idont put a dollar value on my wrench time as it cost me nothing so me personaly i never spend money till im all out of wrenches.....see thats a joke to me and i see how my joke on my previous post went where i would not go im sorry for that i sould have discounted my joke in the previous post after making it :mrgreen:

you actuly can do a valve job on motors without taking the heads off and ive done it in farming a lot not because it was the way to go but because it had to be fast as mother :head bang: :rant: :sensored: nature is hard to deal with ...there are no deals at all actuly....ive never done this on a goldwing and probably wouldnt ....it would take an old time hand valve grinder that operates by hand and operates in a back and forth movement and not round and round in the same direction .....but the exhast and the intahes would have to come off to be done right .....anyway its not something to consider in my opinion at all ...

joedrum":15bur7ci said:

.....idont put a dollar value on my wrench time as it cost me nothing so me personaly i never spend money till im all out of wrenches.....

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There is no dollar value for wrenching on my personal stuff either. I wrench all week long for a living and come the weekend I'm usually due for a stress break. After almost 30 years, I'm starting to burn out. But I remember when it was fun. Plus, getting old and fat, I'm kinda spoiled from wrenching at work on a level cement floor, necessary equipment, and my entire tool collection within arms reach. At home I have to squat or lay down a lot, on uneven dirt, and improvise for lack of some tool I wish I had. But even so, my satisfaction is found in the treck for the mechanically perfect and reliable 83 Interstate. Learning to figure out what I need and making sure I obtain those parts to restore a classic project, then being undertooled in a primative work space on my days off has been trying my patience. I know, this probably comes across like some kind of primadona. But I'm not. Think of me as more of a weekend weenie whiner. :smilie_happy: :smilie_happy: :smilie_happy:
It's good to be able to come here and bounce questions about second guessing timing marks, though.

joedrum":15bur7ci said:

see thats a joke to me and i see how my joke on my previous post went where i would not go im sorry for that i sould have discounted my joke in the previous post after making it :mrgreen:

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I caught the humor, but wasn't sure if you were telling me to pull the heads in a humorous way. Don't worry, though. I was hesitant.

Got it buttoned up today and got the oil & coolant back into it. Had to jump the battery to get it started, and it ran like crap. Also had this loud tapping noise. So I removed the left side belt cover and moved the cam gear back one tooth like I found it. It started and ran much better, but the loud tapping noise is still there. I went ahead and let it idle while I tried to isolate the noise. Sounds like it's coming from under the carbs, top, center. But when I walk around the bike it seems quieter on the right side and more pronounced on the left side. So I pulled the cover off the left head to check the valve adjustment, but it's too hot to touch right now. That's the only thing I know of that I could've done was screw up on the valve adjustment. But it seems like I would need to have really screwed up bad to have a noise that loud.
I better have a beer and a sandwich. :doh:

I hope not :doh:

Check the compression.

Well I removed the cover on the noisy side and checked the valve adjustment 3 times. I don't see a problem there. I think when I first started it up and it ran kinda crappy may have been due to the fact that it's been sitting in pieces for about 4 weeks now, the battery was dead, and fiddling with the choke, etc. I did move the cam gear and then moved it back like I had it where the marks line up right. Seems to like it's marks in the right place the best, so that's where I'll leave it. Starts and runs great. (except for the noise) Spark plugs and carb adjustment next, but I gotta deal with this noise first. It wasn't making this noise when I parked it.
Can anybody tell me what the heck I did to my motorcycle? :beg:
Does any of this sound familiar to anyone?

dan filipi":2k0riowk said:

I hope not :doh:

Check the compression.

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I won't have a compression gauge till Monday.

Obviously a compression tester will tell a lot.

IMHO, it does sound like valve tick from misadjusted valves. Did you replace the valve seats like you mentioned in your first post? Is it possible that the valves are not sliding as quickly leaving a tiny gap at the rocker when running?

A few questions, did you replace the belts with the radiator on?

If yes, are you sure the crank pully was at the correct mark (stayed at T1) prior to installing and during installation of the belts and did not roll 1 tooth off the same as the pulley?

Did you adjust the valves with a cold engine?

If it is possible that the crank pulley and cam pulley are off 1 tooth and the valves were adjusted, moving the belt back would change the adjustment and they could be loose.

I hope the compression test only reveals loose valve tappets!

My guess is it's still one tooth off in the other direction. I did that and it ticked like a mother...

Take the covers back off and line everything up, slide the right belt off and use a pry bar through the cam sprocket on a bolt behind it to help you hold the cam in time while you put the belt back on. On the right side you are working against the valve springs while trying to fit the belt in time and it often makes you get it a tooth off. The ticking will go away when it's right.

mcgovern61":ejwibix1 said:

Obviously a compression tester will tell a lot.

IMHO, it does sound like valve tick from misadjusted valves. Did you replace the valve seats like you mentioned in your first post? Is it possible that the valves are not sliding as quickly leaving a tiny gap at the rocker when running?

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I replaced the seals. Not an easy thing to do on the bike, btw. The valves seemed to move pretty easy by hand with the new seals on.

mcgovern61":ejwibix1 said:

A few questions, did you replace the belts with the radiator on?

If yes, are you sure the crank pully was at the correct mark (stayed at T1) prior to installing and during installation of the belts and did not roll 1 tooth off the same as the pulley?

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The radiator was off because I put new hoses on. So I had good access to the belt area. I had moved the left side cam mark so that it lined up with the mark on the back cover. (I originally found it one tooth retarded)That's where I adjusted the valves the first time. After hearing the noise, I moved it back to where I found it. Valve adjustment was affected, and they were readjusted. When that didn't solve the problem, I moved the timing marks so they line up right and had to readjust the valves. All the while rotating by hand and useing the T1 mark.
I used my manual for adjustment proceedure. It says to line up the T1 mark @TDC #1 comp, then adjust #1 IN. & EX, #3 EX, #4 IN. Then rotate the crank 360* and line up T1 @TDC #2 comp, (this puts the left cam gear mark 180 off, correct?) then adjust #2 IN & EX, #3 IN, #4 EX.

Then I rotate 360* and recheck. Then rotate 360* and recheck.

mcgovern61":ejwibix1 said:

Did you adjust the valves with a cold engine?

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This is weekend #4 since the motor had been run. The first time it was started. After that the engine had cooled for almost 2 hours before working on it again. That's when I could touch it comfortably. My manual calls a cold engine 95 degrees.

mcgovern61":ejwibix1 said:

If it is possible that the crank pulley and cam pulley are off 1 tooth and the valves were adjusted, moving the belt back would change the adjustment and they could be loose.

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Yes, it did, and I delt with it.

mcgovern61":ejwibix1 said:

I hope the compression test only reveals loose valve tappets!

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I'm hoping you will look over my valve adjustment proceedure and discover what I did wrong. It's been 4 weeks and it's time to clean up the mess.

(this puts the left cam gear mark 180 off, correct?)

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With #1 TDC on compression stroke both cam gears should say "UP" at the top of the gear.

When rotating the crank 360 degrees BOTH cam gears should then be 180 off, the "Up" should be upside down at the bottom of the gear.

dan filipi":3as8gpge said:

(this puts the left cam gear mark 180 off, correct?)

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With #1 TDC on compression stroke both cam gears should say "UP" at the top of the gear.

When rotating the crank 360 degrees BOTH cam gears should then be 180 off, the "Up" should be upside down at the bottom of the gear.

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That's the way it is. Thanks. I currently only have the left side timing cover off. That's why I only referenced that side in my statement above. That's where the noise seems the loudest. And that was the timing mark in question. But I'm gonna have to pull the other side today and start from scratch.

I have to agree that it "sounds" like a valve tapping noise. That's the speed of the noise anyways.

The good news is, all that popping sound is gone from the exhaust and it seems noticably smoother.
But...nothing like solving one problem and creating another. :head bang: :doh:

sounds like a valve "tick" to me too.
I'm thinking maybe check all rockers closely for cracks or possible misalignment
seems like I had an issue like this after putting the valves back together and it had something to do with a keeper not seating properly. "stickin out" or a rocker tapping on it..

close inspection on the valve train...

it sounds pretty smooth!
good luck Bro.

jdegase":omd8sffo said:

sounds like a valve "tick" to me too.
I'm thinking maybe check all rockers closely for cracks or possible misalignment

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Misalignment? You mean as in "not on the valve tip"?

scdmarx":13jaakrx said:

jdegase":13jaakrx said:

sounds like a valve "tick" to me too.
I'm thinking maybe check all rockers closely for cracks or possible misalignment

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Misalignment? You mean as in "not on the valve tip"?

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Yep, I had that happen once.

yes, Kirk.
seems like after looking closely the keeper was stickin up and the rocker arm was "tapping" it.
I remember this cause it surprised me it didnt fly out, or let the spring pop.
we're all pullin for ya bro.
hope its a easy fix.

just a thought.
I did valve seals and head gaskets while I had mine pulled down, and its been 2yrs. so I dont remember the specifics.