T-belt...Cam timing theory?

[joedrum]

umm!!!! im glad you thought better than to rev this baby up .....if you adjusted the valves right and im sure you did .....it looks like you are going to have to take the heads off and do a valve job .....theres somthing wrong here big time ....the seats must be bad and a valve must be bent ever so slightly maybe ...its got that sound like one valve is making three or four clangs each stroke of the valve.....

in my earlyer post i said i wouldnt spend money till i was all out of wrenches......well i think your all out of wrenches and its time to do a complete head job before the head or heads get trashed....i think when the head comes off you will be able to tell exactly whats up.....

lots of noise to keep testing it .....if you did the adjusting right its time for valve job on both heads ....it just seems like somebody ran it to long one tooth off

yeah like jim said go over everything to make sure its not you thats done somthing wrong and simple first

 

[scdmarx]

I just removed all the covers and walked through the steps again. Tbelts line up and valves are adjusted. Don't know why I didn't hear this noise before, but....it's there now and there's no getting around it. I'm gonna stop at this point before I do any more damage. I think it would be an encouragement to me if I just pick up all the tools, clean up what mess I can, and start new with removing the heads. I don't mind really, since I plan to keep this and ride it, then maybe pass it on to my kid someday. I just wish I could've known so I could've planned better. So far the only thing waisted is time. The money spent thus far was for things that won't need to be respent. So you might say, I'm still going foreward. Even though money is pretty tight right now. A mans gotta do what a mans gotta do. And a guy's just gotta fix his motorcycle, right? I'll want to bring some things home from work before the final engagement. I'd like to see a leakdown test, and perhaps try to see something with a borescope before I get started. Just habit for the record I guess. So till then, I think I'll kinda get things picked up and then start the solder job on the 3yellow stater wires. (I wonder what will go wrong there?) :headscratch:

While I have your attention....
Where do I go for gaskets and valves&seats for this head rebuild? I've heard not to grind the hardness off the valves, and I can reface the seats at work if I need to do that.
What else am I gonna need? :thanks:

 

[dan filipi]

I agree with your approach Ron. Do a compression check also.
Helps to know these things for the record and future reference for you as well as the forum.

I wouldn't pull those heads until you have a definitive reason for the noise and what is causing it.

Head gaskets: Honda Only!

 

[scdmarx]

I agree with your approach Ron. Do a compression check also.
Helps to know these things for the record and future reference for you as well as the forum.

Anything I find will be documented right here. I'll let other people figure out if it's useful or not.
If I gotta do it anyways, I'd like to document something that would help somebody in the future.

I wouldn't pull those heads until you have a definitive reason for the noise and what is causing it.

Well, I'm almost there now...If I find nothing, then at least I'll have a freshened up valve train to go with the loud custom pipes to cover the noise. :rant:

Head gaskets: Honda Only!

Ok, I'll buy into that.

 

[scdmarx]

I had the chance to run a compression check.
Freshly charged up car battery, jumper cabled to the bikes battery - gas off - kill switch switched to "kill" - key on - throttle cranked wide open - push the start button. All 4 cylinders read about 125psi by the fourth crank.
These are the numbers produced at 10 cranks:
#1= 165
#2= 170
#3= 180
#4= 180

I don't think I see any problem there, unless somebody can help me see the light otherwise.
The noise isn't present while cranking. Only when running. So I pulled the valve covers again and lined up the marks and ran through the valve adjustment again. That's when I found it! #2 exhaust rocker was very loose when wiggled by hand. Check out this link:

https://img697.imageshack.us/img697/8991/2exhaust.mp4

I don't know how I could have missed it so many times before, but there it was, so I made the adjustment and put the covers back on and started the motor excitedly! But the noise was still there. :head bang:
Getting late, and dark, I closed shop for the night. At 3 am I woke up thinking how stupid I was for not checking to see if the loose rocker was because the valve was stuck open. :doh:
So I got up to pee, made coffee, and watched an episode of Alias Smith & Jones. I took a break from it tonight, but tomorow I'll pull the valve covers back off and check to see if #2 exhaust rocker is too tight. I kinda hope it is. Then I'll have the evidence I'm looking for to pull the heads.

Stay tuned.......

 

[joedrum]

yep i think you got it scdmarx ......its hard to seeit any other way.....it is just slightly bent enough or whatever to be hanging up while running ......you can mess around with it some more but its clear you need to pull the heads and obvious that this is the noise and not down lower ....so id call this good news and get those heads off there before something breaks .......in my eyes you have seen enough no more testing needs to be done :mrgreen: its to risky as for running it anymore..

 

[dan filipi]

Strange #2 has 170 compression with a bent valve. I'm not completely convinced yet but it's hard to deny that much space in the rocker.

 

[scdmarx]

Strange #2 has 170 compression with a bent valve. I'm not completely convinced yet but it's hard to deny that much space in the rocker.

The thought in my mind is that for some reason, the valve is sticking. Not necessarily bent.
The noise is not there when cranking, but only when running. Perhaps I got lucky that one time and saw it when it remained stuck (in the guide?), but got excited and failed to look further into it. Not exactly my style, but I can be pretty burnt on turning wrenches by the end of the day, and this one doesn't pay. My next plan is to line up the T-marks and check lash again, and if it's too tight, that is the only explanation I can think of.

I'll pull the heads if need be, but I just kinda like knowing for sure that I'll be fixing something when I do, rather than do all that and still have that racket when I'm done. It's mine, there's no deadline to meet. I want to see the noise. Even though I'm unfamiliar with the product, I feel I should be able to find a noise this loud before doing exploritory surgery.

 

[scdmarx]

Another question for the gurus:
I noticed that #1 intake rocker and valve stem were dry. No oil, and the rest of them had an oily mess on them. So....how does the oil get there? Is there an oil flow chart I can look at? When I pull the covers, there is accumulated oil puddle that dribbles out. Are they simply splash oiled? I just can't see by looking where the oil to the valve tip is fed.

 

[dan filipi]

The valve stems are splash oiled and there's a oil orifice in the rockers.
Might be a good idea to crank it with the valve cover off to see if oil is getting to those points.
If you start it there should be oil EVERYWHERE. Mcgovern61 posted a video running with the valve cover off.

I wonder if there could be a bit of carbon causing that valve to hang up.
What all did you do prior to this noise showing up?

 

[mcgovern61]

Here is the video of the oil flow in the valve train:

 

[mcgovern61]

With that much clearance in the rocker to valve, can the valve be tested by inserting a screw driver and see if in fact it is moving and not stuck? I know these springs are heavy duty.

 

[joedrum]

im kinda thinking that theres enough drag going on that when its running it cant keep up .....ive seen this before on motors.....

i know when i got my 1100 it had a noise in the valve trane .....not very bad and seem to go awy after warm.....so i change the oil and started useing ATF in the gas and the noise over time has almost compleltly dis appeared.....but in no way was it like this deal .....


you could maybe spin this valve with a drill and some realy light machine oil that will heat up better than thicker oil and go where the thricker wont .....and work this valve down and up slowly while spinning ....slow enough so you dont go all the way to the seat as you are getting good compression and dont want to scew that up ....if your careful and presice you might just machine this valve in you should feel a huge difference right away with the oil but dont be fooled its going to take alittle time .....as long as your smooth and dont wam bam it you cant hurt it ....its not like your useing cutting compound .....ive done this before when a gain truck had a stuck valve and it worked and got me home and idont think it ever gave anymore problems ....im not sure as im typing this that you could get hooked up to the valve as im not looking at the head .....you would have to get into a very comfortable possistion to do this thow...just a thought :mrgreen:

 

[scdmarx]

The valve stems are splash oiled and there's a oil orifice in the rockers.
Might be a good idea to crank it with the valve cover off to see if oil is getting to those points.
If you start it there should be oil EVERYWHERE. Mcgovern61 posted a video running with the valve cover off.

I did crank it with the cover off to try to see the noise (which wasn't there during cranking) but once the oil started to pour out I stopped.

I wonder if there could be a bit of carbon causing that valve to hang up.
What all did you do prior to this noise showing up?

It could be coinky-dink? After sitting with no coolant or oil in it for a couple weeks. And just prior to that I was adding ATF to the gas. I figured out that 1/4 quart is too much for my bikes, but about half of that works pretty good.
Before the noise I did timing belts, valve adjustment, oil w/filter, coolant, fork seals, front and rear brake calipers and front master cylinder.
I wanted to change the valve seals while I had the covers off, but my spring compressors are all too big to do this on the bike. I only did one side (1&3) and said screw this, I don't feel like doing the other side (2&4). I think I saw the trick posted here but I can't find it. A photo where somebody had bolted a piece of metal to the head and used that as a pivot to pry a box end wrench, pushing the spring down to remove the keepers. This was very dificult task to perform, not to mention that when doing the exhausts you have gravity working hard against you. But I didn't replace any seals on the side that's making the noise. It was so difficult that I gave up before I got to that side. I also messed with the fuel tank sender and soldered the 3 yellow stater wires to bypass the melted plug. It got new radiator hoses and radiator cap, and I rewired the front fender light while I had the front forks off. New tires also. But the only thing I did to the side making the noise was to adjust the valves. That and the timing belt. And that is the side that had the belt a tooth retarded.

 

[joedrum]

ive seen this before and it realy dosnt make any since that the timing can be right one tooth off but i have seen cases where it is like that....i guess it could be from a perivous valve smash that wrenched the pulley i guess ....with the abrupt stop of the cam and the continuous torque of the belt before it breaks :mrgreen: thats the only thing ican think of that would maybe do that :headscratch:

 

[jdegase]

heres a thought for ya scd,
its easy enough to pull the timing gear off that side and check the alignment key.
also (and you probably know this) when your adjusting a intake valve the exhaust should be under tension.. if you watch the valve train as you turn the engine and stop when the exhaust is open fully(valve spring fully compressed) THEN check the intake.
it always made more sense to me to adjust the valve when I know it was closed fully.
since you found a loose spot .....
could it be possible the cam has a flat spot on it?
maybe this flat spot doesnt correspond to the -T- marks.
also maybe the alignment key is partially sheared

good luck bro,
keep us informed.

 

[dan filipi]

Since you'd have the cam belt and gear off to check for a partially sheared pin it's not much more to pull the cam all together and check for possibly a damaged (pitted) rocker or lobe.

One other thought, are you certain the rockers are seated up against the cam holder?
I've had one just off center of the valve stem which later I had to actually loosen the cam holder to get the rocker seated properly. If a pic would help explain what I mean I'll post it.

Just trying to avoid pulling the head if not needed. With that compression I can not see how the problem is a bent valve.

 

[scdmarx]

One other thought, are you certain the rockers are seated up against the cam holder?

I assumed, but I'll look very closely.

 

[scdmarx]

heres a thought for ya scd,
its easy enough to pull the timing gear off that side and check the alignment key.
also (and you probably know this) when your adjusting a intake valve the exhaust should be under tension.. if you watch the valve train as you turn the engine and stop when the exhaust is open fully(valve spring fully compressed) THEN check the intake.
it always made more sense to me to adjust the valve when I know it was closed fully.
since you found a loose spot .....
could it be possible the cam has a flat spot on it?
maybe this flat spot doesnt correspond to the -T- marks.
also maybe the alignment key is partially sheared.

Now there's a dang good idea, simple as it is! Anything coulda happened. Somebody coulda lost the key and put it back together anyways. Never know till ya prove it.

I used to rotate the motor and watch the cam lobe untill it was on the base, lobe pointing opposite the rocker, to adjust valves. Then a couple times I ran into motors that actually have you adjust the valve at "xx many" degrees before max lift, etc. Mostly now I just go by the book. When I got my Standard and did the belts and valve adjust, I went with the instructions in the manual and the results were fantasically noticable. I never expected to have this kind of trouble with the Interstate now.

The noise wasn't there before I started working on it. That's rather humbling. It's not like I'm experimenting or customizing or trying to make it into something it's not.

good luck bro,
keep us informed.

Wilco.

 

[scdmarx]

:head bang: :head bang: :head bang: :head bang: :head bang: :head bang: