1985 Limited Edition 2022 Work Period

[Rednaxs60]

More work accomplished. Changed out the ECUs. Not a lot of difference between theses. The original ECU has the wrecker marking that it uses, tells me again that this bike had a hard early life.

Checked the injector holder o-rings, all good.

Have it back together ready for the front fairing to be put back on. Need a road test.

 

[D-50Dave]

When your riding days are done, someone will be VERY lucky to get this bike. Wonderful follow.

 

[Rednaxs60]

When your riding days are done, someone will be VERY lucky to get this bike. Wonderful follow.

Thanks. Don't know about this. Person will have to be a wiring guru.

 

[Rednaxs60]

Finished up work for the day. Front fairing back on, nice to have some dash readings to see. Reset the cylinder balance, and adjusted the idle. The digital RPM readout does change, but it is a gradual change - staying at a given RPM for some time, not an abrupt RPM bounce around as it was before. Do not hear that annoying engine "stumble".

Going to be a few days before I'm settled on the operating configuration. Want to do a test of each ECU and a road test, choose the best of the bunch. The ECU I used today was the one that came with the bike.

If I were a betting man, I'd say the last changes are the most significant. Changing the PB sensors for a newer technology, and cleaning up the reed valves, wouldn't bet on this but it's the best I can come up with. Using Honda Bond 4 on the reed valve assemblies when I reassembled the reed valve assemblies may be of benefit as well.

Looking forward to putting this work period to bed.

 

[Rednaxs60]

Quick update. Started there engine this morning, and tried the three ECUs. Each reacted the same when ignition key turned ON - no error codes. When starting the engine, the engine RPM started at approximately 1000 RPM, dropped to approximately 850 RPM, then started to recover to a fast idle around 1300 RPM. The RPM decreased and settled at approximately 1020 RPM, and was quite consistent with very little change, up/down maybe 20 RPM each way. happy with the idle at this time.

My thoughts on the starting and subsequent RPM is that when the ECU does a systems check, as long as there isn't an open circuit and the appropriate voltage is present all is well - may be more to it, the ECU will not generate an error code. This check only needs the voltage to be within spec limits of the resistance.

When the engine is started, the voltage the ECU sees is dependent on the resistance of the component and thinking that this is a different part of the ECU programming If so, could be a reason for the engine start profile as I am seeing it.

Read on the CX500 forum that a fellow cleaned/replaced the PB connectors on a turbo, same FI system but has a boost function. It was mentioned that this also helped clear up the low RPM engine stumble that was being experienced.

In order to prove this, and knowing that after some 37 years, a little bit of crud/corrosion on connector terminals can be an issue, will start with the PB sensor connectors, take apart and clean - don't think new connectors will be required, but if so have waterproof connectors on hand. The first set of connectors to be addressed will be those directly related to an ECU input starting with the PB sensors. Can't hurt.

 

[Rednaxs60]

Packing it in for the day. Checked the PB connectors, looked good, but the mad scientist that I am, I changed out the connectors. Think I could hear a bit of a difference, but will let sit overnight and give it a start in the morning.

Have the vacuum gauges hooked up and the vacuum is hovering around 9" of Hg.

Trying to get that last percentage point out of this work and investigation period.

Tomorrow, plastic back on, ECU back in place and go for a ride.

 

[dan filipi]

Go for a ride is a good choice

 

[Rednaxs60]

Road test done yesterday and it was not too bad. The main indicator I look is engine temp, stays at 4 bars or when the engine temp increases - how long in Kms does it take to return back to four bars. I do the seat of the pants feel, I can tell when the engine is not as smooth as it should be.

Today, a day of discovery. Decided to weed out any bad TPS components that I have. Five road tests in all. Engine idled well with all. Slight misfire/stumble in the low RPM range with all. After approximately 2800 RPM, all TPS reacted the same, engine operated very smooth and well.

Here's my dilemma, can 5 TPS units be faulty, don't think so.

Back to the drawing board. The CFI system is good, ECU likes the inputs from all the components. have to trust the system some time. Rules out the PB sensors for now - Suzuki IAP sensors installed.

Can the coils be weak, answer is yes even though the engine idles very well, and operates well in the upper RPM range.

Checked the wires, coils and plug caps - new plugs installed. Every component was in spec with the exception of the coils - primary resistance was 3.5 ohms, suppose to be 2.7 +/- 0.3 ohms. Secondary resistance was in spec. Checked the supply voltage to the coils, north of 10 VDC - should be good.

This has got me to thinking that there is a possibility that the coils may need to be replaced. 37 year old coils can be deceiving at best.

Good reason to do the COP mod. I hearken to what socrace on the NGW forum mentioned regarding his COP mod. He intentionally created a problem in the fuel system that the OEM system could not handle. He swapped to the COP mod and all was well. New OEM coils if you can find are not inexpensive.

 

[Rednaxs60]

Been reading on line regarding failing/faulty coils. Some of the indicators are gas smell on start, and when operating, poor performance, poor fuel economy - when your spark plugs aren’t getting enough power (due to the faulty ignition coil), the system will try to compensate by injecting more fuel, rough idle, misfire sounding like a coughing or sputtering noise and occurring under power during acceleration mostly.

These are a few of the symptoms I have been hearing/feeling. Not show stoppers but enough to keep me looking. I have also read that you have to rule out other aspects as well, I think I have done this.

As mentioned, I have done as much tooth CFI system as I can. I will do a few pressure test, but have done this before on several occasions and is within spec. I initially mentioned that when I took #2 plug wire off, not a lot of RPM change.

More to follow.

 

[OldWing SEI]

Moin Rednaks60
I have already replied to that:
I had a similar experience with the coils, I used a flashlight, to test the firing and there were some dropouts. The measuring of the primary and secondary contacts was ok. After the change of the coil, everything was fine. You never know what happenes inside the coils, when they warm up while operating. Good Luck

 

[Rednaxs60]

Read your initial post, but had to make sure that the CFI system was not an issue. Too many components on these FI models that could cause the same problem. Now to source a good set of coils. It's sometimes hard to change course and look at a different aspect.

 

[Rednaxs60]

Moin Rednaks60
I have already replied to that:
I had a similar experience with the coils, I used a flashlight, to test the firing and there were some dropouts. The measuring of the primary and secondary contacts was ok. After the change of the coil, everything was fine. You never know what happenes inside the coils, when they warm up while operating. Good Luck

What coils did you install? Looking at 1500/Valk coils. Considering that most are the same price regardless of year, looking for the latest used available. Will be calling RMStator in Quebec tomorrow to discuss its coils. New at approximately $45.00 CDN, primary resistance of 3.2 Ohms, no secondary mentioned.

 

[OldWing SEI]

What coils did you install? Looking at 1500/Valk coils. Considering that most are the same price regardless of year, looking for the latest used available. Will be calling RMStator in Quebec tomorrow to discuss its coils. New at approximately $45.00 CDN, primary resistance of 3.2 Ohms, no secondary mentioned.

I have a set of used oem in spare, and as long as possible, I will use the oem. Normally they last very long. There is a risk of corrosion on the primary connectors. It was only a reminder, not to sort them out, while the troubleshooting is still going on. I am working on a similar problem, but it starts at 120 km/h cruising and the noise is like bad synchronisation, the engine runs very rough until 185 km/h top speed. Not that much for a 1200. I found a shop in Berlin, who will check the injector’s, clean them and match a good set of four out of the eight, I send to them. I will keep You informed.

 

[Rednaxs60]

Good luck with your issue. You're well into the Alha-N ECU mapping that uses RPM and Throttle position as the two key elements, water and air temp is the same for low and high end RPM. Have found the OEM injectors to be very robust. Would not surprise me if all eight came out good.

I have a set of new aftermarket coils I bought a few years back. Going to connect these into the system to determine the impact. I have a spare set of OEM coils, connected and tested with the same results as the ones installed, but at idle only. Road test for the aftermarket and spare OEM coils is required.

Checked the resistance of the aftermarket coils. Primary for both 3.2 Ohms, secondary for one at 14.3 KOhms, second one 12.6 KOhms. There is a +/- 4 KOhm variance so the lower reading should not be an issue.

Once I get the trials done, will make a decision on a set of 1500 coils - would have to mod the mounting arrangement a bit, but these are OEM coils. Chasing an illusive issue is time consuming.

This is my investigative work for this week. Good luck with yours.

 

[Rednaxs60]

The answer to my dilemma is probably staring me in the face so to speak.

Connected the new aftermarket coils to the engine system. Cylinders 1/3/4 are firing and when the plug cap is removed the engine RPM decreases significantly. #4 could be more robust in this regard but it does change the engine RPM but not as aggressively. Changed the plug wires form side to side as well.

#2 cylinder might as well be there for the ride - started the engine without #2 plug cap installed, engine didn't notice. Not a lot of difference in engine RPM and when the plug cap is off for a prolonged period, no difference. I checked the plug spark and it is good. Get the wire and end of the plug cap near a grounding point and it sparks well. Took a used plug and the spark is good and when the electrode is 1/2 inch from a ground point, it sparks to the ground point.

Fuel, air, spark and I have fuel and spark. Can tell there is fuel as you can smell unburnt fuel when the engine is operating - can't isolate which cylinder is the culprit for the fuel issue, but getting close.

There are no error codes.

Have listened to the injector when the engine is operating, sounds the same as the others.

#2 compression when engine is at operating temp is 160 PSI. If this is true and I have to trust the tools I use, when #2 plug cap is removed should be a noticeable difference in engine RPM.

#2 compression can be high but the intake/exhaust valves can be on the cusp of not sealing completely especially when the engine is operating. I am going to add a 0.69 mm shim to #2 intake and exhaust valves.

I have thought about this. The OEM service manual has a maximum number of shims at 2. I have looked at the 1200 carcass engine heads, and find that some of the valves are shimmed at the max and there has been no work done on the heads. This could be problematic if work is done. Grinding the seats to clean up a bad seat might take enough material off that the valve shim stack for whatever valve is now outside the OEM requirements, and the valve(s) will have to be shimmed by trial. It is possible that #2 valve seat, especially the exhaust valve seat was badly pitted and a lot of material was removed.

I have extra injectors and will do an RXR trial, but not until after the valve shim change. Will be connecting the fuel system pressure tester as well.

Grasping at straws, but trying to make sense out of this.

 

[Rednaxs60]

My post #95 above lets me organize my thoughts so that I minimize my travel down the rabbit hole.

Went out to the garage and started the shim adjustment of #2 cylinder valves. Added a 0.69 mm shim to the intake - it is at 2.69 mm. Added 1.69 mm to the exhaust valve - giving 3.69 mm. It has made a difference when I disconnect the plug cap. I have to order additional shims from Honda. I want to round off at 4 mm on the exhaust shim, and 3 mm on the intake shim.

Edit - #4 cylinder is not as aggressive as numbers 1/3 when it comes to how the engine reacts to removing the #4 plug cap. I think I have a grasp on the #2 cylinder, so will adjust the #4 intake/exhaust valves and determine if there is a benefit.

Next I will do a compression test, tomorrow afternoon. Will be connecting the vacuum gauges as well.

I have to wait for the shims, so will put back together and ride it for a few days.

 

[dan filipi]

My post #95 above lets me organize my thoughts so that I minimize my travel down the rabbit hole.

Went out to the garage and started the shim adjustment of #2 cylinder valves. Added a 0.69 mm shim to the intake - it is at 2.69 mm. Added 1.69 mm to the exhaust valve - giving 3.69 mm. It has made a difference when I disconnect the plug cap. I have to order additional shims from Honda. I want to round off at 4 mm on the exhaust shim, and 3 mm on the intake shim.

Edit - #4 cylinder is not as aggressive as numbers 1/3 when it comes to how the engine reacts to removing the #4 plug cap. I think I have a grasp on the #2 cylinder, so will adjust the #4 intake/exhaust valves and determine if there is a benefit.

Next I will do a compression test, tomorrow afternoon. Will be connecting the vacuum gauges as well.

I have to wait for the shims, so will put back together and ride it for a few days.

Wouldn't the special tool work to measure for shims needed?

 

[dan filipi]

GL1200 shim measurement tool specs

classicgoldwings.com

 

[Rednaxs60]

Yes it will. The issue is that I can add shims, have no tapping - you would think you would, and it is operating better.

Some of my best troubleshooting moments are in the early morning.

There has to be an issue with the valves. #4 cylinder is weaker than numbers 1/3.

All things being equal, there is something wrong with this cylinder head. Valves sticking not bent. Have to find out what the issue is.

 

[OldWing SEI]

I also had a problem with the hydraulic tappets. After overhauling the cylinder head, I mounted the camshaft and the hydro tappets. I measured them with the gauge and provided them with the necessary shim. (I have 6 cylinder heads and all have only one shim per valve.) I bled the hydro tappets with kerosene After screwing in the screw plug, some valves stood a little open. It had not compressed the hydro tappet, but over the rocker arm, the valve opened. Then I loosened the screw plug again and the valves were closed. Then I turned the screw plug in very slowly and stopped again and again when the resistance was felt. Now the hydraulic tappet had time to get rid of the excess petroleum. Now the valves were tight again and the compression on all cylinders was 14bar(200psi). The pressure of your engine is with 160psi very low and at the lower limit. Does the engine already have a high mileage, or is your pressure gauge defective?