A couple questions for the auto mechanics here

[dan filipi]

My daughters 08 New Beetle is due the 40k mile service.

We had Firestone service do a check of everything and they recommend a fuel system cleaning (for $99.99) that includes,
1. EK-10T fuel system cleaner= $44.99
2. Chemically clean throttle body, throttle plate and air intake bore.
3. Chemically clean intake and combustion chamber.
4. Chemically clean fuel lines, fuel rail and injectors with an additive added to the fuel tank.

This EK-10T cleaner........I have only heard there's a special process used to clean injectors that the shops use.....never seen it done.
My questions are is this something needed for real or can I do the same cleaning with that special air sensor cleaner spray and drop a few tanks of seafoam treatments in the tank?

I ask particularly because they want $112.00 labor to replace 5 spark plugs, plus $21.99 parts.
Hard to find good mechanics around here that won't jack ya.

 

[backlander]

My two cents worth is from what I read, they want 112.00 to pour a bottle of chemicals into your gas tank. Personally I don't see why it would need all that at 40,000 miles. Sounds like just another ripoff. I'd change the fuel filter, dump some seafoam in it and try to find non-ethanol fuel to run.

 

[Ansimp]

As Mike said Dan its just a way for the dealership to make money. Here in Oz we just run our high octane 98 fuel for a couple of tank fills and that has the same effect

 

[AApple]

They are prolly wanting to hook up a system to the fuel line at the infectors, dis-able/block the fuel pump, and run the engine strictly on the infector cleaner, which sometimes includes stuff to clean the top end(valves, pistons). DOes it really need it? Prolly not at 40,000, but it would depend on how it is driven, and the quality of the fuel used. I would skip the infector/throttle body/intake cleaning part...especially since they listed that TWICE. THere would be no reason to add anything to the tank if they are cleaning the infectors to start with....makes no sense. Unless what they are planning on doing is just dumping the crap in the tank, and letting her drive it clean, herself. In which case, it's not a good idea....you can pour the stuff in yourself, and save $100.
You can buy intake/throttle body cleaner at the parts house, and spray it into the throttle body(with the engine running), and do the same job they were gunna charge you for.

Below is a condensed version of the VW Regular Maintenance Schedule for that car....nowhere does it recommend cleaning the fuel system. Items in Red are the ONLY "Replace" items in the schedule.



Maintenance Items @ 40,000
Air Filter Element -- Replace
Automatic Transmission/Transaxle-- Check
Auxiliary Power Outlet-- Inspect
Axle Shaft Assembly-- Inspect
Battery-- Inspect
Body and Frame-- Inspect
Brakes and Traction Control-- Inspect
Cabin Air Filter / Purifier Replace
Coolant -- Inspect
Disc Brake System-- Inspect
Drive Belt --Inspect
Engine-- Diagnose/Test
Engine Oil -- Replace
Exhaust System --Inspect
Front Door Limiter-- Lubricate
Headlamp-- Inspect
Lighting and Horns-- Inspect
Manual Transmission/Transaxle-- Inspect
Oil Filter, Engine-- Replace
Power Steering Fluid --Inspect
Service Reminder Indicators --Reset
Shift Interlock, A/T -- Inspect
Spark Plug-- Replace
Spoiler-- Lubricate
Steering --Inspect
Sunroof / Moonroof Frame-- Lubricate
Suspension--Inspect
Tires --Inspect
Vehicle-- Diagnose/Test
Wheels-- Rotate
Wiper Blade-- Inspect
Wiper and Washer Systems-- Inspect

 

[slabghost]

I just put in a bottle of atf when I fill the gas tank once in a while. Never any trouble with injectors.

 

[BigBro]

The only time I have seen a real need for an Injector cleaning is if the vehicle has sat for a while on this gas and when running it you notice an uneven miss at idle or a little poorer fuel mileage when driving it.
Little poor fuel mileage is subjective but if you have kept mileage records you would see what I mean as a sudden change.

Typically with the additives in the fuel and a tank of premium now and then for the bigger dose of cleaners you shouldn't need to clean injectors at 40K

I had one vehicle treating tank around every 20K with a techron product and premium fuel around every 10K or when on a hot road trip at 200K those injectors still going strong.

Another vehicle unknown history for sure - although most likely similar to stated above since it was a family rig. 1/2 the mileage of above in similar time and the auto mech said Injector clean will smooth out that idle. Sort a did for about 2 tanks of fuel then back to crappy idle.
Now I run about 5oz TCW-3 in a 20gal fillup. After 1 tank on a run, it just purrs.

Sorry hard to explain the difference other than very smooth now.

ymmv but I feel the Injector Cleaning is not needed at 40K unless you see something as I described.

 

[cooltech]

Dan I work in a dealership here in oregon and I can tell you it is worth the money spent on the cleaning it is not just
putting it in the tank when you do an injection flush on an engine it cleans the top end not only the injectors but the carbon
build up that robs power and fuel economy it should be done once a year at 40,000 I say you should. I do it on my own
cages and they run good and I keep my fuel mileage up. We have had cars and trucks come in running rough and all they
want is spark plugs and after that still runs rough with new plugs then they say too do the injection flush the rough
run goes away. Even if there is no runability problem it is still a good service too do.

 

[scdmarx]

I have worked at dealerships, but not VW. All this stuff is legit, but the dealers will tack it on to every tune up service needed or not because it's fast, easy money.
First off, I highly recommend Techron in the tank. This will keep the fuel injectors clean. The injectors do have a little screen in them that can become clogged, or partially clogged over a long period of time. The crap that clogs them comes from sediments in the tank that passed through the filter. Usually this accumulates from gassing up at the pump. This will result in a driveability concern, such as rough running or misfire, and by that time the only way to clean the injector will require disassembly. Usually cheaper total repair bill to replace it. Better off as well. There is some stuff available commercially that gets drawn into a vacuum port, or pressurized and fed to a clip on spray nozzle mounted to the throttle body, that can do a half way decent job of cleaning carbon build up on the back of the intake valves. This carbon will act as a sponge on the back of the valves, absorbing the liquid vapor droplets, causing a lean condition. Again, won't be noticed until a driveability concern is experienced. You can use carb spray to clean the throttle body if it's coked up. Caution: drive by wire throttle bodies are rather hard on the fingers when they close.

All of this is meant to be "preventive" maint. But I have cured some driveability symptoms on days I wore my lucky drawers to work.

For the most part, if you don't feel good about spending the money, my advice would be to purchase a bottle of Techron once in awhile for the gas tank and clean the throttle body if it's coked up.

In my personal opinion, the gas tank additive does a pretty good job of keeping the injectors clean, and works best when added to a full tank, then driven all out at once on a long trip. It works on a full tank because stronger is not necessarily better here, but running it longer does the better job. It also works better when the engine is hot. I've never used Seafoam on a late model car, but I'd be very careful of what I'm running through a catalytic converter because they're not cheap, especially the California approved ones. They are under warrenty, but I'm not sure enough to quote if it covers dumping all kinds of **** through it.
Use a High Quality Air Filter to keep the mass air flow sensor clean! And PLEASE use the correct oil for that motor.

BTW, that's not a bad price for that service compared to most shops. I usually see it between $125 & $150.

 

[cooltech]

You are correct some dealerships do tack it on for easy money one of the first things we do is ask if they have ever had
an injection service done if they say no then we recommend it ours is around approx 100.00 for a gas engine and
approx. 150.00 for diesel we do not push it if they don't want it Techron is a good additive but is only added to the tank
this is good for the fuel lines and the injectors but is injected under normal pressure an injection flush is higher pressure
and stronger additives that do a better job overall and it as for the new cars this service is becoming not nessessary
due too the new design of the engines

 

[Ansimp]

The only way that I can really see the benefits of injector cleaning is when they are done off the vehicle and bench tested before and after the ultrasonic cleaning bath.

 

[mcgovern61]

Ford serviced my '00 Taurus wagon at about 68K miles with a similar service and I personally never noticed a difference afterwards. The manual said to replace the plugs at 100K miles and at 96K I pulled a plug and was shocked at how little electrode remained! :shock:

Ford did a tune up with plugs, wires and an injection cleaning again plus a new fuel filter. Car still ran the same, no new power increase, mileage still ran about the same and I was starting to feel ripped off! Talked to the Service Manager next time I was in and he claimed that even though these services did not seem to improve anything, it really did. He claimed that I did not notice it as much because the onboard computer constantly adjusts the mixture based on all of the conditions it picks up and always provides a smooth engine.

I had two Taurus's; the wagon for 11 years and my daughter now has the sedan in Florida which we have had for 10 years. Those engines always run smooth and never seem to show what is going on. Ultimately, the Service Manager did convince me that these services ultimately helped keep the engine going for a long time.

 

[scdmarx]

On mechanical fuel pumps from the older carburated cars I've seen the rubber hose deteriorate from the inside and pieces break away, but since then I've never seen a fuel line get clogged up and need to be replaced. Except for an in line filter.
It's just my personal opinion, but I'm convinced that using a top tier gasoline and a bottle of Techron in the tank Once a year, or maybe every 6 months will do ya just fine. Change the filter once a year, no more than 2 years, if applicable. Some cars now have them in the tank and suppose to last 100k.

The service managers job is to convince you to purchase this service. If he can add that $100 bump to every ticket that comes through the door, everybody's happy. And he stands there day in and day out brushing up on his pitch. But do you really need that at 40k miles? And like Joel mentioned already, why doesn't the factory include this in their list for service intervals? Indepenent shops and dealerships both purchase these chemicals from an after market route salesman. Don't get me wrong, these products are good quality and I like them. But is it necessary every few thousand miles?

 

[scdmarx]

The only way that I can really see the benefits of injector cleaning is when they are done off the vehicle and bench tested before and after the ultrasonic cleaning bath.

^ Like.

 

[joedrum]

not in my world ...i could do nothing but laugh at this person ...and id have to leave such a place that would do such a thing to there customers period

 

[dan filipi]

Thanks for all the input guys.

I think any more all the stations have cleaners in their gas, we run Shell regular.
We're going to pass on this injector cleaning for that reason and only 40k miles, but also because Vw doesn't list it at all anytime for the life of the car, neither do my 2 other cars.
I've heard nothing but good for many years using techron so well run that through all our cars.

As far as the spark plugs go, well that's a no brainer, but I haven't looked at the manual yet. I wouldn't be surprised if there's a special tool needed.

 

[scdmarx]

As far as the spark plugs go, well that's a no brainer, but I haven't looked at the manual yet. I wouldn't be surprised if there's a special tool needed.

There is for the metal shield on the boots. And maybe a wobbly socket.

 

[dan filipi]

Manual says a special tool to pull the coils off the plugs or use 2 flat blade screw drivers to work it up.
Hmm...which way should I use :smilie_happy:

 

[joedrum]

hmmmmm :headscratch: :hihihi: :hihihi:

 

[Steve83]

Thanks for all the input guys.

I think any more all the stations have cleaners in their gas, we run Shell regular.
We're going to pass on this injector cleaning for that reason and only 40k miles, but also because Vw doesn't list it at all anytime for the life of the car, neither do my 2 other cars.
I've heard nothing but good for many years using techron so well run that through all our cars.

As far as the spark plugs go, well that's a no brainer, but I haven't looked at the manual yet. I wouldn't be surprised if there's a special tool needed.

Yup! And that special tool would only be available at VW dealers, and cost $150!

 

[scdmarx]

screw driver.