C5 using a VOES switch

[slabghost]

mcgovern61 » Mon Dec 08, 2014 10:24 am[/url]":r02z59dm]
I will be installing a C5 in the future and I am really interested in this mod! If I understand it correctly, this mod will do what Brian did with using his switch climbing mountain roads fully loaded?

Yes and no. Brian used all of his curves with the rotary switch. This will switch between the top two curves only.

 

[ekvh]

Off topic, but as to 1200 ignition, the book says the black box uses engine speed to adjust timing in gears 1-3 and then uses engine vacuum to vary it in gears 4-5. Black boxes are going to get rarer and rarer. C5 is the next black box. The VOES is going to be a little like what the 1200 did originally.

 

[mcgovern61]

slabghost » Mon Dec 08, 2014 10:43 am[/url]":3c5a0i32]

mcgovern61 » Mon Dec 08, 2014 10:24 am[/url]":3c5a0i32]
I will be installing a C5 in the future and I am really interested in this mod! If I understand it correctly, this mod will do what Brian did with using his switch climbing mountain roads fully loaded?

Yes and no. Brian used all of his curves with the rotary switch. This will switch between the top two curves only.

I do not know the difference between the curves (or really understand it).

But, as a dummy on the subject, my goal is better performance when climbing hills. I have an '83 engine in the '82 frame with '82 final drive. While it dropped my highway RPMs down quite a bit in 5th gear, it also causes lugging climbing hills in 5th at 55 to 60 MPH. Dropping to 4th to climb long hills is a bit much sometimes and it sounds like the switch Brian used solved that.

 

[slabghost]

mcgovern61 » Mon Dec 08, 2014 11:11 am[/url]":18l76jbc]

slabghost » Mon Dec 08, 2014 10:43 am[/url]":18l76jbc]

mcgovern61 » Mon Dec 08, 2014 10:24 am[/url]":18l76jbc]
I will be installing a C5 in the future and I am really interested in this mod! If I understand it correctly, this mod will do what Brian did with using his switch climbing mountain roads fully loaded?

Yes and no. Brian used all of his curves with the rotary switch. This will switch between the top two curves only.

I do not know the difference between the curves (or really understand it).

But, as a dummy on the subject, my goal is better performance when climbing hills. I have an '83 engine in the '82 frame with '82 final drive. While it dropped my highway RPMs down quite a bit in 5th gear, it also causes lugging climbing hills in 5th at 55 to 60 MPH. Dropping to 4th to climb long hills is a bit much sometimes and it sounds like the switch Brian used solved that.

Everyone who has switched to C5 has noticed a big improvement there even without changing curves. The extra two sparks per cycle do make a difference.

 

[mcgovern61]

Thanks V!

 

[brianinpa]

slabghost » Mon Dec 08, 2014 11:26 am[/url]":23hrwhjd]

mcgovern61 » Mon Dec 08, 2014 11:11 am[/url]":23hrwhjd]

slabghost » Mon Dec 08, 2014 10:43 am[/url]":23hrwhjd]

mcgovern61 » Mon Dec 08, 2014 10:24 am[/url]":23hrwhjd]
I will be installing a C5 in the future and I am really interested in this mod! If I understand it correctly, this mod will do what Brian did with using his switch climbing mountain roads fully loaded?

Yes and no. Brian used all of his curves with the rotary switch. This will switch between the top two curves only.

I do not know the difference between the curves (or really understand it).

But, as a dummy on the subject, my goal is better performance when climbing hills. I have an '83 engine in the '82 frame with '82 final drive. While it dropped my highway RPMs down quite a bit in 5th gear, it also causes lugging climbing hills in 5th at 55 to 60 MPH. Dropping to 4th to climb long hills is a bit much sometimes and it sounds like the switch Brian used solved that.

Everyone who has switched to C5 has noticed a big improvement there even without changing curves. The extra two sparks per cycle do make a difference.

Sorry I am late - I have been hiding in the woods looking for Bambi's daddy for a few days... still looking for him. Anyway, I never used the last, or top, setting.

I am just a bit confused though... I know when I put the C5 on, I was HAPPY to be getting rid of the vacum advance, and for normal riding, the first setting is enough. What is the benifit of re-introducing a vacum advance?

 

[ekvh]

I have a Reatta that has a computer which displays all engine functions, so my learning is one of observation, not necessarily correct. Chime in to correct me, anyone. I always want to learn more. When cruising at the best mpg, the timing is advanced the most, around 49-53 degrees. Step on the gas just a little and it ******* a bit, step on it a lot and it ******* more. I am assuming it uses MAP and knock sensor and rpm and gear selection to choose the safest timing advance. When the load eases, the timing creeps back up to give the best mileage. The early gl models only had an advance of 37 degrees, the 1100 was 38.5 degrees, the 1200, with the vacuum information allowed it to go to 45 degrees advanced. It would back down to 32 degrees advance if there was need to, based on vacuum. It seems to be implied here that the vacuum brings the opportunity for increased timing. This could be used for the early models as well and probably increase highway mileage a bit.

Maybe Paul can tell us how the C5 adjusts the timing under load and other conditions. It sounds to me like this vacuum, VOES, will do a similar function. This is a good thing in my opinion and is provides options for continued parts for the 1200. How many black boxes are left?

I still say, Paul, it would be great to develop a unit that will fit of the front crank that could cover all three engines. In the long run, your production costs would go down, but your market could be tripled and supplied with a smaller stockpile to keep on hand for immediate sales. If this comes across as a criticism, it is not intended that way.

 

[dan filipi]

Mounted a vacuum gauge.
I'm not sure if these vac readings mean anything running in the garage compared to what I'll see while riding.
I have the gauge bar mounted, might get a lot of bounce from bar buzz but will see this weekend.
May have to find another location.

[video]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XU5P_z_QeM0&feature=youtu.be[/video]

 

[ekvh]

That looks like a fun study.

 

[slabghost]

Sorry I am late - I have been hiding in the woods looking for Bambi's daddy for a few days... still looking for him. Anyway, I never used the last, or top, setting.

I am just a bit confused though... I know when I put the C5 on, I was HAPPY to be getting rid of the vacum advance, and for normal riding, the first setting is enough. What is the benifit of re-introducing a vacum advance?

It's not reintroducing a vacuum advance. It's using a vacuum switch to move to the next lower curve as you did with your rotary switch.

Maybe Paul can tell us how the C5 adjusts the timing under load and other conditions. It sounds to me like this vacuum, VOES, will do a similar function. This is a good thing in my opinion and is provides options for continued parts for the 1200. How many black boxes are left?

As I understand it the selection of where the spark is in timing is based solely on rpm. As the load increases the bike slows and the rpm drops as it does so it also drops back in timing.

 

[PowerArc]

Let's address vacuum at the intake and proper setting of the VOES. Vacuum at the intake is not affected by RPM but by restriction of the intake by the carburetor butterfly or slide. When the engine is off you have no vacuum, when at an idle you have high vacuum and when you are accelerating, you will have low vacuum (depending on rate) that varies. The more throttle you apply the lower the vacuum in the intake manifold and the greater the amount of air flowed. If the throttle is held steady vacuum will settle, when using a VOES you are looking for the transition point where you are stable at a normal cruising speed but if you go to accelerate you will see a normally sharp drop in vacuum. This drop is greatly effected by type of carburetor flow control butterfly being more abrupt vs a slide which is more even.

The use of a vacuum gauge as Dan has added is an excellent way to determine normal riding idle, cruise and the point of vacuum drop where you want the engine decrease advance.

A VOES normally makes contact closer at high vacuum and goes open at a set point as vacuum falls. The mistake most people make when setting this contact open point is that the pull a vacuum until the contacts close, this is not how the VOES works. You must pull the vacuum to contact closure and then release vacuum to find contact opening.

The ignition control wire/s are connected to ground via the VOES for the most advanced timing map. The reason for being grounded is that wires and switches usually break or go bad open, should this happen a less advance means less chance of damaging the engine. Better to run sluggish than baked.

If used properly a VOES in conjunction with another switch can be used to set the timing maps to fit instances where you have poor or low octane fuel situations or the need for speed. We will leave that for a later post.

Knowing how the VOES works needed to be addressed first. I will post more about how wire and make the VOES work to fit you style of riding and answer some of the questions asked earlier in the thread.

Remember: Shoot Low Sheriff, They're All Riding Shetlands

 

[Ansimp]

PowerArc » Thu Dec 11, 2014 3:14 pm[/url]":31f5ql46]
Let's address vacuum at the intake and proper setting of the VOES. Vacuum at the intake is not affected by RPM but by restriction of the intake by the carburetor butterfly or slide. When the engine is off you have no vacuum, when at an idle you have high vacuum and when you are accelerating, you will have low vacuum (depending on rate) that varies. The more throttle you apply the lower the vacuum in the intake manifold and the greater the amount of air flowed. If the throttle is held steady vacuum will settle, when using a VOES you are looking for the transition point where you are stable at a normal cruising speed but if you go to accelerate you will see a normally sharp drop in vacuum. This drop is greatly effected by type of carburetor flow control butterfly being more abrupt vs a slide which is more even.

The use of a vacuum gauge as Dan has added is an excellent way to determine normal riding idle, cruise and the point of vacuum drop where you want the engine decrease advance.

A VOES normally makes contact closer at high vacuum and goes open at a set point as vacuum falls. The mistake most people make when setting this contact open point is that the pull a vacuum until the contacts close, this is not how the VOES works. You must pull the vacuum to contact closure and then release vacuum to find contact opening.

The ignition control wire/s are connected to ground via the VOES for the most advanced timing map. The reason for being grounded is that wires and switches usually break or go bad open, should this happen a less advance means less chance of damaging the engine. Better to run sluggish than baked.

If used properly a VOES in conjunction with another switch can be used to set the timing maps to fit instances where you have poor or low octane fuel situations or the need for speed. We will leave that for a later post.

Knowing how the VOES works needed to be addressed first. I will post more about how wire and make the VOES work to fit you style of riding and answer some of the questions asked earlier in the thread.

Remember: Shoot Low Sheriff, They're All Riding Shetlands

:thanks: :good:

 

[C5Performance]

Dan, I got the VOES switch tonight when I came home. I'll send it out first thing Monday morning.

Then you can start pulling logs from the forest to test your engine load.

 

[mcgovern61]

opcorn: :beg: :yes:

 

[Steve83]

Me too, Gerry...

 

[dan filipi]

It's fun switching the curve.
I'm getting some ping under high load open throttle. I think it's the winter blend gas we have here.
Switching to curve 3 stopped the ping.
Pretty cool to hear the ping then throw the switch and have it stop pinging!

Here is the curves I'm talking about.....

The yellow line curve 1, used while cruising along under light load. Full advance is 40 degrees:

Curve 3 full advance drops to 35 degrees:

Curve 2 in my opinion isn't enough drop in advance to stop the ping since I still heard a very slight bit of ping in curve 3:

Just my honest opinion.

From what I can tell, 5-6" vacuum is the magic number where curve 3 should kick in.

 

[slabghost]

Sweet! Now we have a baseline!

 

[dan filipi]

What's really interesting is there is no perceivable change in power switching to curve 3, only ping stopping.

 

[joedrum]

hmmmm ive never had a ping ever on hooch it surprises me ...

 

[dan filipi]

joedrum » Sun Dec 14, 2014 3:48 pm[/url]":1kcutmlh]
hmmmm ive never had a ping ever on hooch it surprises me ...

Need to get on some real hills and load it.