GL1100 (Standard) - Saving watts through LEDs (Chart)

[joedrum]

I’ve worked plenty of electrical monsters ...some having 10 motors and a 100 hp ...voltage amps wires connectors switches and so on along with load all has to fit ...if voltage and amps are outdone it creates heat and things will fail ...so the statement of resistance in reverse ...parts have to match and load has to be within capacity...stators put out period ...your statement volts increase is heat and failure can happen as I see it

 

[Ansimp]

DaveKamp » Thu Oct 03, 2019 11:56 pm[/url]":7gqhves8]

Ansimp » Today, 6:41 am[/url]":7gqhves8]
Dave, I have to disagree with you as a Mofset regulator of the type that I recommend using is has a duty cycle (switchmode) to regulate the current required not by sinking the excess current to ground.

That's called a SERIES regulator, as opposed to a SHUNT mode regulator.

In a series mode regulator, the regulation dissipation occurs by allowing the stator winding voltage to go uncontrolled, and only meters off current and voltage as-needed, but uses dissipation of series resistance to limit voltage on the output.

When this is done, then yes, it does NOT need to sink excess energy to ground, but the side effect is that stator voltage goes very high, which puts stator winding resistance at risk. Series regulators are not uncommon to outboard motors, but adaptation of series regulators on outboards that were designed for sink, usually results in insulation failure. OEM series regulators on many outboards have water lines to them, or are mounted directly to a crankcase water jacket, to provide cooling.

Is there an aftermarket MOSFET switching series regulator available for the GL?

This is the type that I keep using for many applications, I usually just match up the plug wiring so that they work on which ever application as required. This is not the same plug as the GLs.
https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre ... 3452557846

 

[DaveKamp]

This is the type that I keep using for many applications, I usually just match up the plug wiring so that they work on which ever application as required. This is not the same plug as the GLs.
https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre ... 3452557846

In looking at the ebay store, and doing a quick search, I see no manufacturer's link, no technical documentation, no support... absolutely nothing to support what it is internally, or how it works... they've clearly not identified it as being a series-pass type regulator, don't even identify it as a MOSFET switch-mode. If they did anything better than, or unique to the original shunt regulator, they certainly would've advertised it.

Can you point me to the documentation that identifies it's circuitry, and what it's performance criteria genuinely includes?

 

[Ansimp]

DaveKamp » Fri Oct 04, 2019 6:45 am[/url]":2vqu5cze]

This is the type that I keep using for many applications, I usually just match up the plug wiring so that they work on which ever application as required. This is not the same plug as the GLs.
https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre ... 3452557846

In looking at the ebay store, and doing a quick search, I see no manufacturer's link, no technical documentation, no support... absolutely nothing to support what it is internally, or how it works..

Can you point me to the documentation that identifies it's circuitry, and what it's performance criteria genuinely includes?

Just through use.The original application regulators were this style and as long as the ebay seller/manufacturer sticks to the same design it will work correctly. Normally the FH in the part number is an indicator that it is a series unit. Once installed it is easy to confirm as they produce a constant voltage no matter what the revs or load. :good:

 

[DaveKamp]

Just through use.The original application regulators were this style and as long as the ebay seller/manufacturer sticks to the same design it will work correctly. Normally the FH in the part number is an indicator that it is a series unit. Once installed it is easy to confirm as they produce a constant voltage no matter what the revs or load. :good:

That doesn't confirm that it's a series regulator, it just confirms that it works.

To confirm it by test, you put it on a test plate that's insulated from the bike, then install an ammeter between the test plate (regulator ground) and the chassis, then put a load resistor on the output, and start the engine. If there's any current flow to ground above milliampres, and that current varies in direct proportion to the first several thousand RPM, it's a shunt regulator.

The other way that would SUGGEST (but not prove) is to measure the AC INPUT to the regulator. If it's AC voltage goes sky-high when revved up, and the output says at 14.2ish through the whole range, then it's a series regulator... if the AC voltage stays low, then it's a shunt type.

I highly doubt it's a series regulator... but I'm certainly willing to dispel that doubt if there's clear evidence otherwise.

 

[saganaga]

DaveKamp » Today, 6:11 am[/url]":1s4euhas]
No, because it's not the MOSFET that's consuming the power- it's the shunt load.

Ah, I understand - a MOSFET regulator is just a different type of shunt regulator. I was unclear on the concept. For some reason I was thinking it was a switching voltage regulator.

It doesn't matter wether the waste energy is disspiated in the shunt resistance, or the stator windings, or the transistor doing the switching- it's still being disspiated as waste heat... and the load is still being borne.

The problem with the permanent-magnet alternator, is that it cannot be 'shut down', and it's output cannot be externally modulated. It generates a set amount of power based on rotor speed and magnetic density, and coil winding impedance.

So hypothetically speaking, since it is always producing power, if the stator wasn't connected to a shunt (such as a switching voltage regulator being used), would the amount of heat in the stator increase? After all, the power must go somewhere.

 

[DaveKamp]

[/quote]So hypothetically speaking, since it is always producing power, if the stator wasn't connected to a shunt (such as a switching voltage regulator being used), would the amount of heat in the stator increase? After all, the power must go somewhere.[/quote]

If the stator isn't connected to a shunt, or a load, or anything, the current flowing would stop, and there would be no heat... and there'd be no substantial physical load on the engine... BUT... the stator winding voltage would go straight to the moon.

The reason is simple- when a magnetic field change occurs around a coil of wire, a voltage is induced. If it has nowhere to go, the voltage goes very high. If it has somewhere to go, then current flows, and voltage says down. This is the same reason that spark plug coil secondary voltage (prior to breakover) rises when you partially lift one of the plug wires... you've made resistance higher, but the coil field is still collapsing.

At any given speed, the higher the current flowing out of a stator, the lower the voltage will be. The limit of current limit is determined by the impedance of the windings... and below the cutoff frequency of the inductance, most of the impedance is simple resistance.

Let's say the coil has a 10 ohm winding RESISTANCE, and at whatever speed you're running the engine, it's developing 14v downstream of the rectifier... regardless of the presence of a regulator, you'll have 14v/10 ohm = 1.4 amperes of current flow.

If you doubled the turns of the winding, using the same wire size, you'd see 28v out... but the resistance would now be 20 ohms. Your output would be limited to 28v/20ohms or... 1.4 amperes.

Now, the output POWER would be twice as high, because 28v at 1.4A is twice as much as 14v at 1.4A.

 

[saganaga]

Just to continue - if the voltage goes very high, then there's more stress on the stator windings, correct?

 

[DaveKamp]

There's stress on the stator winding INSULATION. As the voltage goes higher, it's the insulation taking a beating... but to do this, the current must be very low, or nonexistant. If there's any current flow, the voltage falls... because the impedance of the coils make it capable of carrying out only-so-much-current. In hard numbers, if this is a 500w generating system, and operating at 14.3v, that's 34.965A. If that 500w 'sweet spot' occurs at say... 3450rpm, and you spin the engine up to 3450rpm, there will be every bit of those 34.965A flowing out of the coils. If the bike only accepts 2A of charge and 9A of other loads, the remaining 23.965A will be shunted to ground, and turned into waste heat.

Voltage, hence stress on the windings, and power consumption, is a function of CURRENT FLOW through the windings. If you allow the current to flow (by giving it either a load, or dissipate it to ground), the voltage will stay low.

Since this is a shunt-regulated system, there is ALWAYS current flow... what isn't used by a load (lights, ignition, fan, stereo, etc) is dissipated as heat when it's shunted to ground.

Let's say the generating system is rated for 500w. The stator will be developing it's maximum output at all times, and it will require at least that much mechanical power in, at all times, wether you use it to run lights, or charge a battery, or run the fan... whatever you don't use, gets dissipated as waste heat, in the name of keeping the voltage capped at 14.3ish.

 

[DaveKamp]

What it really comes down to, is that the design of the permanent magnet shunt-regulated alternator system is a compact and simple method of providing electrical power for battery charging and lighting, but the side effect of being compact and simple, is that it is a 100% system- it develops it's full output, and presents full mechanical load on the engine, regardless of wether the power going out is used, or sent to waste.

Because of this, if the motorcycle is fitted with a 500 watt PM alternator system with shunt regulator, it puts out up to 500w at it's max, and requires 500w of crankshaft power to do it.

A substantial improvement to the charging system is to either convert the regulation to series-regulated system of switch-mode power supply. Going series-regulated means that the PM alternator would only subject the engine to what was needed on output... but the downside is that series regulated forces the stator AC voltage extremely high, and in order to get that back down, requires a switch-mode power supply with full capacity output available an extremely wide input voltage range. Such units are NOT small, and they naturally require the input voltage to always be substantially higher than the output voltage.

The reason why I doubt that the link above is NOT a switch-mode series-regulated unit, is because the stock PM stator, under full load, will be basically AT the system voltage, and at speeds above the coils' fO, the alternator's output drops BELOW system voltage... it is effectively off. A switch mode system simply cannot regulate when it's got a rail voltage of only slightly higher than output target. In order for such a system to work on a motorcycle, the stator would need to be intentionally re-wound to put out about twice the target voltage. While this would be fine for a stator that operates in a narrow voltage range, motorcycle and outboard motor engines do NOT operate in a 'narrow' range, so they have to be set to work in a 'satisfactory' operating envelope.

It's important to note that the engine designers did this on purpose... they drew a fine line of balance between battery charging and small loads, vs., parasitic crankshaft losses, space, and weight. I'll also reiterate that in the permanent-magnet system, it is a 'total loss' system- power is generated, and the engine parasitic crankshaft HP loss exists, regardless of wether you use it with high-draw loads, low draw loads, or no loads- what isn't used, is wasted, and that cannot be changed.

For those who need better power, a typical external alternator IS the best choice, as it has a wound field, which is modulated by the regulator, thus, it only draws parasitic engine power in proportion to output demanded by the system, and since it doesn't generate excess, it's only waste is that which is required to excite the field, and of course whatever heat is produced in the windings due to resistance and core losses. The disadvantage is space, weight, and added inertia on the engine. Inertia is important, because it affects how quickly an engine can move through it's RPM range, which on a motorcycle or a boat, determines how quickly it can accelerate.

 

[DaveKamp]

So in concordance with the original post, switching to LEDs provides many advantages, and while saving watts IS one of them, but in the end, there is only ONE savings advantage:

If you have OTHER loads that require energy, going to LEDs frees up the charging system output to feed those OTHER loads... like running heated grips, gloves, jacket, helmet visor, coffee cup holder, and of course, hair dryer, rechargable electric chainsaw... it would open up power for all those things... well... some of them... most of them, but not all at once.

 

[Ansimp]

DaveKamp » Sat Oct 05, 2019 12:33 am[/url]":19l19j5c]
So in concordance with the original post, switching to LEDs provides many advantages, and while saving watts IS one of them, but in the end, there is only ONE savings advantage:

If you have OTHER loads that require energy, going to LEDs frees up the charging system output to feed those OTHER loads... like running heated grips, gloves, jacket, helmet visor, coffee cup holder, and of course, hair dryer, rechargable electric chainsaw... it would open up power for all those things... well... some of them... most of them, but not all at once.

I don’t understand you emphasis on the possible issues with high voltage in that stator when it is open circuited. I have not seen any stator insulation failures by having 70-80v Ac through the windings in a no current situation.

 

[DaveKamp]

I don’t understand you emphasis on the possible issues with high voltage in that stator when it is open circuited. I have not seen any stator insulation failures by having 70-80v Ac through the windings in a no current situation.

Because the stator's biggest weakness is insulation. Time, temperature, and vibration are beating away at the insulation, as well as exposure to oil and acidic combustion byproducts that find their way in there. When a motorcycle alternator fails, it never fails from fractured laminations in the ring, nor a loss of magnetism in the rotor, nor a broken thimble... nor a broken rotor shaft... it's ALWAYS the windings, and always the windings' insulation.

Starting with a brand new OEM unit, that higher AC range would not be a problem, but simple age weakens the insulation resistance... the other factors finish them off. Every once'n'a while, there MIGHT be a case where some piece of debris winds up inside the works, tumbles around, and hits the windings and stator... sometimes it breaks a magnet, but most of the time, it winds up getting jammed alongside windings, breaking and shorting them, but most of the time, failures occur just from age/exposure/time.

Insulation resistance is the #1 reason why ANY electromotive device... be it a rotating motor armature, or a linear motor, or a linear solenoid. If it were a contactor, the contacts would be the highest point of wear, but with just polepieces and windings, the only thing to go wrong, is the electromagnet, and the only part in there subject to any type of weakness, is the insulation of the winding wire.

I have seen many stator failures, some in motorcycles and snowmobiles, many, many in outboard motors, and also on inboard-outboards fitted with permanent magnet alternators. Always insulation failures.

If the stator is new, there's no reason why it wouldn't have insulation quality much higher than the open-circuit situation would ever demand... I'd expect 'em to be able to high-pot test in excess of 500v, not be surprised to see them surpass 1kv with no leak through the insulation, but I certainly wouldn't expect a 30 year-old-motorcycle with OEM stator to be as solid. On the contrary, I'd expect anyone who wanted to do a regulation-concept change would be doing so because they'd already had a regulator failure, and were trying to improve the performance using some other regulation method, and not realize the ramifications of a design change.

 

[Ansimp]

Dave, I am not talking theory as I actually have these regulators in old and new bike applications and so far so good.
https://classicgoldwings.com/forum/view ... =0#p138184

 

[aussiegold]

i also have changed all three of my golgwings ( GL 1000s ) to the FH mosfet type regulator/rec
combined unit. i do not understand all the technical stuff. i do understand that all three,
now have steady charge rate , 14.2 or close, from idle and at all revs . zero fluctuations. this , to my
rather feeble understanding, tells me it is more efficient and real easy to test. real easy to fit and so far
no troubles.
all three are el cheapo chinese units........ or as i like to think of them...... fully imported units at
a competitive price. :clapping: :clapping: :clapping:
here's a bit of info..

 

[DaveKamp]

The video MOSFET vs. Shunt is inaccurate in name. Both systems are shunt type... as they shunt excess to ground.

Most of the shunt regulators built for motorcycles, snowmobiles, and outboard motors after 1980ish used MOSFETs... (Metal Oxide Semiconductor Field Effect Transistors). Prior to that, common Bipolar Transistors were used. When I converted my GN400 from 6v to 12v electrics, I used a pair of TIP120C bipolars triggered by a 12v zener and three 1n4002's in series (that's 12+.6+.6+.6 for 13.8v) as my gating threshold.

The only difference between the MOSFET, and any other shunt system, is that the MOSFET is more sensitive, and has lower series resistance than a standard bipolar.

No matter how you do it, a shunt-regulated system is 100% total loss- whatever the stator coil puts out, becomes 100% (plus a few for losses) crankshaft load, and 100% heat. The only difference is how you use it- either it'll go to operating devices, or it'll go to heating the coils, regulator, and ground return path.

Here's a nice writeup, with illustration, and a comparison table to boot:
https://www.polytechnichub.com/differen ... regulator/

Perhaps I should sit down and draw diagrams of them, and then one of a common alternator system, include current flow, power calculations, and graph them through operational load ranges and transient excursions... but I still have nice weather, so I gotta get outside and get work done. Mebbie later.

 

[pidjones]

Simply, the MOSFET advantage is a more robust modern system. Still dumps excess to ground.

 

[DaveKamp]

pidjones » 36 minutes ago[/url]":3c0kqfa4]
Simply, the MOSFET advantage is a more robust modern system. Still dumps excess to ground.

Exactly. Not that the original wasn't robust... the unit in my '79 CX500D is 40 years and 300,000miles old, and still going fine, but these things have components that are not immune to aging, so when they do, an alternative is always welcome.

 

[OldCrow]

DaveKamp » 2019-10-05- 9:32[/url]":1hpc2644]
....
Perhaps I should sit down and draw diagrams of them, and then one of a common alternator system, include current flow, power calculations, and graph them through operational load ranges and transient excursions... but I still have nice weather, so I gotta get outside and get work done. Mebbie later.

Hi Dave
Just stumbled across this thread and would like to compliment you on your excellent description of the GL charging system. Funny while my degree is EE with a focus on power, I haven't given the charging system much thought since on my bikes they have just worked! But then my career had about zero practical EE and was all programming and engineering management.
I for one would love to see that diagram of current flow, power calculations etc.!!
Thanks
OC

 

[DaveKamp]

Hi Crow!

Well thank you for letting me know that I managed to reach at least ONE person :smilie_happy:

I troubleshoot my company's systems on a daily basis, and I'm a Root Cause Analysis kind of guy, looking for the reason for the reason of the failure, and oftentimes, it's shortsighted design assumptions or poor execution... and oftentimes, the people I explain it to, are so limited in their grasp of basic electronic principles, that they dismiss my explanations and ignorantly chase ghosts in some other direction.

oh2:

The permanent magnet/shunt regulated alternator is a fascinating gadget in that, it is a 'high waste' concept, but because of it's design, the waste output PEAKS in the middle of the powerband, then falls off towards the upper end. Clever in that it's parasitic power falls off when you really want that top end torque, and clever in that, in an all-day interstate jaunt, it generates LESS output (both useable , and parasitic), rather than scrubbing off a high proportion of output to keep from boiling out the battery.

I postulate that future iterations of the system will, rather than generate waste by shunt regulation, allow the output voltage to climb high against a high-impedance load... and instead of shunting excess to ground, it will simply pulse-width-modulate it's output at whatever the appropriate system voltage demands at the time... basically, a switching-mode power-supply design with DC in, to DC out. This will clearly require higher voltage insulation quality for the stator, but engine horsepower will be substantially reduced, as there'll be no more 'parasitic' load.