Why single carb?

[Silverado6x6]

I would go a step further and try to go TBI, fuel injected throttle body, have a processor thats fuel map programmable, exhaust o2 sensor, the whole works. They are available either from scratch or off some other bike, or even some late model import engines. I have fuel injection on my newer Star bike and even with a 5 cent resistor changed its air fuel ratio (its installed in the oxygen sensor harness, fools engine to make it run richer). On a Goldwing that would be a valuable asset to be able to adjust the AF mixture on the fly for weather, in town cruising or turnpike touring.

 

[ekvh]

There have been many bold starts to the fuel injection mods, but most fall away after considerable expense. There is certainly plenty of interest as ethanol here in America seems to be forcing us to have to go that direction. I have not seen more than one attempt to inject an early gl that succeeded, or if succeeded, decided to share the info. I think you're looking at more than a grand with considerable fabricating and trial and error. This single carb mod is a throw back, but if you can easily see a bottom end torque improvement, it has its merits.

 

[Dave_J]

Silverado6x6 » Mon Sep 30, 2013 4:58 am[/url]":1rftaemt]
I would go a step further and try to go TBI, fuel injected throttle body, have a processor thats fuel map programmable, exhaust o2 sensor, the whole works. They are available either from scratch or off some other bike, or even some late model import engines. I have fuel injection on my newer Star bike and even with a 5 cent resistor changed its air fuel ratio (its installed in the oxygen sensor harness, fools engine to make it run richer). On a Goldwing that would be a valuable asset to be able to adjust the AF mixture on the fly for weather, in town cruising or turnpike touring.

It would work if you could get it cobbeled up. A mini-squirt EFI controller and two 2003-2007 Suzuki Burgman 650 throttle bodys is my thought. The 2008 up are computer controlled idle.

Here's a Ebay post for a 2003 unit. I have one in the garage if anyone wants measurements. https://www.ebay.com/itm/Suzuki-Burgman- ... 0f&vxp=mtr

 

[C5Performance]

I believe peak horsepower with multi carbs should be higher but low end might remain the same. This is based on information viewed from VW air cooled dyno runs and discussions with my VW race engine builder.

What Dan mentions (and I take to heart) is that one or two horsepower LESS to have a great starting and running bike is worth the trade off. I would agree as well. I'm waiting for an opportunity to run a GL on the dyno before and after a carb swap. Since I am going to "attempt" a fuel injection conversion, my own Wing would not be a good candidate.

If anyone in the Midwest has one they will convert, I can negotiate free dyno time to see what the real increase/decrease in horsepower is. This could be valuable to the forum for those considering a swap.

As Dan and I have also discussed, a "new" set of Wing carbs would be ideal, but I just don't think throttle shaft leakage is a fixable thing, and that could be the one item that keeps an otherwise "good" set of carbs from performing as Honda intended.
My Caterpillar pony engine has horrible leaks at the throttle shaft...enough that it will no longer idle, even if you remove the screw.

 

[skiri251]

C5Performance » Tue Oct 01, 2013 7:28 am[/url]":3nyg71m8]
As Dan and I have also discussed, a "new" set of Wing carbs would be ideal, but I just don't think throttle shaft leakage is a fixable thing, and that could be the one item that keeps an otherwise "good" set of carbs from performing as Honda intended.

I am not at all familiar with oldwing carbs but are they any different from Mikuni MarkII CV carbs on XS750?
On Mikuni carbs butterfly shaft seals are replaceable.
You just remove the butterfly (two tiny philips screws), then pull out the shaft.

My XS750 had a creeping up idle RPM issue as the engine became hot. Replacing the seals (o ring) fixed that.

 

[82a]

30 years down the road, the option to have a fast easy cheap fix win win win

vs what can instead become a pia money pit headache $$ and having a good bike worth nothing

 

[C5Performance]

KYWinger » Fri Sep 27, 2013 10:31 am[/url]"4skwoli]
Big, huge, expensive sigh here.......

Now, not only do I have to add 75-77 cams and a C5 ignition, I hafta go the single carb route....

:rant: YOU GUYS ARE KILLIN' ME!!!! :rant: Just kidding.............sort of............

Be well-

Oh heck, I might as well jump in here too. Gary at PowerArc and I have been arguing back and forth on this one for awhile (more like passionate discussion).

First, CV carbs react to air pressure and not just "throttle twisting". For the average non-enthusiast you have a much smoother operation using the CV system, although i hate them. I've had idle hanging issues and slow acceleration that (as a racer) I just never had with an RS or TM style carb. It's very much a personal preference and now you know what I think.

Second, the stock Honda GL carbs, or any set of individual carbs, would be better for performance (and probably mileage) WHEN they were new. Years of use, worn parts, and too many variables makes this argument a bit weak. No rider I know has a set of NOS carbs to install so we can compare. Rebuilding a stock set is expensive and time consuming with no guarantee they won't pop or sputter.
Power depends, to a large extent, how well the fuel atomizes. Intake runner length comes into play, as does the diameter of the runners.

I do believe after all this time, a properly adjusted single carb, with a reliable setup to prevent icing, will probably work great for a few simple reasons:

New carb=no air leaks or sticking parts
One carb=no syncronizing and no mismatched carb operation
One carb=big $$ saved from installing four new replacement "style" carbs or rebuilding the complicated stock carbs.

It's more important to have something that works perfectly, than to worry about which system you have. We argue over the same thing with air cooled VW engines in my circle of friends. I run a single carb, while my good friend Howard thinks I am a loser for not running duals.

 

[KYWinger]

C5Performance » Wed Oct 09, 2013 8:52 pm[/url]":2zl4t164]
Rebuilding a stock set is expensive and time consuming with no guarantee they won't pop or sputter.

Paul - I had Pistol Pete redo my carb rack with the master kit from Randak; I think it was about $485 and well worth it - I just finished 2 years riding with the rebuilt carbs and they still perform flawlessly - just lookin' for more trailer towing oomph.....

 

[dan filipi]

KYWinger » Thu Oct 10, 2013 4:08 am[/url]":39nlqddh]

C5Performance » Wed Oct 09, 2013 8:52 pm[/url]":39nlqddh]
Rebuilding a stock set is expensive and time consuming with no guarantee they won't pop or sputter.

Paul - I had Pistol Pete redo my carb rack with the master kit from Randak; I think it was about $485 and well worth it - I just finished 2 years riding with the rebuilt carbs and they still perform flawlessly - just lookin' for more trailer towing oomph.....

That's a good question which should come first, a single carb or a C5 ignition. (Well the question popped into MY head anyway).
Both would be best but I would go with the ignition first since your carbs are working good.

 

[joedrum]

ignition is the worst part of oldwings hands down ...in my book ..stock carbs or single don't even have a chance with the average oldwing performing iggy

 

[dan filipi]

Fyi,
CGW endorses the C5 ignition assembly and it's PowerArc components because it's the best thing to come to the Goldwing market in a very long time.

It address the weak spark and outdated timing design as well as provides a modern design ignition replacement for unavailable parts.

CGW recieves NO commision on C5 sales.
It is simply an amazing product we feel strongly about that solves many problems so we are doing all we can to help Paul continue to sell them so he will keep making and developing them.

 

[mcgovern61]

dan filipi » Thu Oct 10, 2013 7:58 am[/url]":361wss67]
Fyi,
CGW endorses the C5 ignition assembly and it's PowerArc components because it's the best thing to come to the Goldwing market in a very long time.

It address the weak spark and outdated timing design as well as provides a modern design ignition replacement for unavailable parts.

CGW recieves NO commision on C5 sales.
It is simply an amazing product we feel strongly about that solves many problems so we are doing all we can to help Paul continue to sell them so he will keep making and developing them.

Agreed! And since CGW is Member driven and not sponsored in any other way, I (as a Member) also would endorse the C5 ignition!

The single carb setup is a logical follow up!

 

[gingerbreadman]

Do we have a thread about the C5 ignition? I was going to try to find some 1500 coils and wires, as well as putting on an alternator off of a Sprint Metro. I recently scored one at my favorite bone yard for $45.
But of course, no matter how much power ya got, it don't do no good if ya can't get it to the plug. My burning question would be, how much is it? I thought I read somewhere it was like 500 bucks!

 

[slabghost]

gingerbreadman » Thu Dec 19, 2013 1:56 pm[/url]":rbsq5ekb]
Do we have a thread about the C5 ignition? I was going to try to find some 1500 coils and wires, as well as putting on an alternator off of a Sprint Metro. I recently scored one at my favorite bone yard for $45.
But of course, no matter how much power ya got, it don't do no good if ya can't get it to the plug. My burning question would be, how much is it? I thought I read somewhere it was like 500 bucks!

It is. And worth it.

 

[sparrowhawkdesign]

I look at it this way. Look at the price of any performance product that will improve the performance of a motorcyle anywhere near what the C5 does. Not sure there are any such mods for the older GL's. So let's say you have a motorcycle and decide to buy a performance exhaust. Cost of that will be more than the price of the C5 and after jetting the carbs to match you are going to be in to it more than the ignition cost and less improvement in performance. Now I don't have a C5 in my GL yet but a close friend has installed about seven or eight in 1000's and 1100's with the same results. Awesome! I have been running one in my old Guzzi Convert (shown in my gallery) and still can't believe the difference. The old Convert uses a two speed manual with a Torque Converter to give high and low. I run a full dressed bike and pull a good sized sidecar. Installing and setting two sets of points was a pain. Like the Goldwings timing was always close but rarely spot on. In about the time it takes to replace and time points in the GL's I can swap out the whole Guzzi ignition, replace with the C5 and set the timing spot on only having to put the left cylinder on TDC, switch the key on and rotate the encoder wheel until the red light comes on and lock it down. Done. Yes done! Both cylinders are now in perfect time.

With the timing spot on,and aided by the multi spark that means the fuel charge is burned more completely,the performance increase still makes me grin. I have ridden this model motorcycle for almost 20 yrs. I have done coast to coast trips pulling the sidecar and it has been a fun ride. Lately I have been looking at swapping to a 5 spd to gain some performance. Not now. Instant starts and the ability to turn the idle down until the charge light comes on (using a $500 brushless alternator upgrade) and still it idles smoothly. There is no neutral in this bike so with the sidecar letting go while it is running used to result in it trying to run away. Now the idle is slow enough I can leave it running while I open the gate and it doesn't try to chase me through. :good:

On the highway I have a paddle grip on the throttle side to help keep the throttle steady when my hand goes to sleep. Now I find that where I used to cruise at about 62mph it does just on 70mph at the same throttle position. Oh yeah, my hand no longer goes to sleep from vibration. I'd say about an 80% improvement there. Fuel mileage is about the same but I'm running faster. Once the weather improves again I want to try to duplicate a mileage run I did a couple years ago and maintain the same speeds I ran at before the ignition swap. It already seems to be going a little farther between fill ups but no real proof yet.

Can't wait to get the ignition and single carb on the 83. I want to ride it NOW! :smilie_happy:

 

[dan filipi]

You've described the improvements really well sparrow and it still amazes me every time I start the bike.
I can't wait to ride it now it's so much more enjoyable.
Sort of sounds like a commercial for the C5 but it's not.

Everyone needs to understand and believe me when I say this forum get's ZERO commission from sales of the C5 or any other forum sponsoring and to tell you truthfully I really don't want any. I do however really, REALLY want Paul to continue offering this ignition to the Goldwing community. It is simply THE BEST development to come along for the oldwings.
Add to it a tuned single carb setup, you've literally got an engine that runs almost like you added 2 more cylinders, it's that much smoother!

I'm really glad I bit the bullet buying the C5 and spent all the time on the single carb setup.
Both well worth the efforts and cost and I would do it again.

 

[sparrowhawkdesign]

dan filipi » Fri Dec 20, 2013 9:55 pm[/url]":1de0bv7w]
You've described the improvements really well sparrow and it still amazes me every time I start the bike.
I can't wait to ride it now it's so much more enjoyable.
Sort of sounds like a commercial for the C5 but it's not.

Everyone needs to understand and believe me when I say this forum get's ZERO commission from sales of the C5 or any other forum sponsoring and to tell you truthfully I really don't want any. I do however really, REALLY want Paul to continue offering this ignition to the Goldwing community. It is simply THE BEST development to come along for the oldwings.
Add to it a tuned single carb setup, you've literally got an engine that runs almost like you added 2 more cylinders, it's that much smoother!

I'm really glad I bit the bullet buying the C5 and spent all the time on the single carb setup.
Both well worth the efforts and cost and I would do it again.

I've wanted to do this for years. We owe you and Joe and others for finally taking the time to figure it out. Thank you!

 

[bronko37]

This may just be me, but I enjoy tinkering with the stock carb set up probably just as much as yall enjoy tinkering with the single carb set up. Seems like no matter which way you go you are gonna have to do some adjusting and trial & error work. I don't mind the ignition system either. It gets the job done and both of my wings, '75 and '76, pull real hard. The 75 starts right up and runs like a Honda should. I just rebuild the carb rack on the 76, it was my first carb job ever, and had success on my first attempt. I just took my time and made sure everything was perfect. That needs to be done no matter what set up you are running. I just need to do some final timing and carb sync adjustments and the bike will run perfectly. It already runs well but there is some definite stumble off idle. The 75 does not have that stumble so I just need to chase it out of there.

I am glad yall are doing your own thing with the single carb conversion, I think its real cool. But as a new member to this forum who is reading through a sea of posts it becomes very evident that you dont want to be slammed for doing your single carb tinkering. However, there is an awfull lot of slamming going on for those of us who like the multi carb set up. Personally for me, I dont think you can engineer anything in your garage that will out perform a well set up stock rack. But that is just me, you have to make your bike do what you want it to do. I dont worry about poor performance below 3k rpm because I dont spend any time there other than at a stop and my bike idles perfectly there. From 3k to red line my bike pulls like a muther father :music: . Each carb set up has its own advantages and disadvantages. That is what makes these old bikes so cool. There is no right or wrong answer to how to set the bike up. What works for one is not a fix all for everyone. Lets all just have good discussion and respect eachothers bikes. Afterall, we are all wingers here and that is what matters. :moped:

 

[joedrum]

agree totally ... what one wants ...or advice thty seek out is perfectly in there right and no rides statis over anyone ... not even honda they abandon these bikes with total non support ... and thats how i look at them

 

[Joep]

Playing in the box or thinking outside the box... this forum doesn't slam anyone's preference... that is the great thing about the classics family here.. your brother may tease and prod you.. another says let's try it.. and now we have dedicated, out of the box, we proved 'em wrong, never say it can't be done, folk on here.. I love hearing all sides of things.. ( and I do prod sometimes to get the thoughts running)