hooch blew a head gasket

[joedrum]

pics...

pic of the gaskets after annealed and cleand up

pic of gasket made out of printing paper ..vs want me the sandwich the copper gasket with two printing paper gaskets and use sealer to stick them to the copper ...comments and opinions welcome ...

im sure this is not going to be completed today im going over everything ...this will be my last try ...i will listen and consider all comments no matter what they are .. no attitude or bs will be made out of anybody's comments ..i want to hear what others think and bring to the table ... :builder:

 

[canuckxxxx]

I think the printer paper will dissolve by contact with coolant as well as being destroyed by combustion. :nea: but I can't think of what else you could use. :headscratch:

That's going to make for a pretty thick gasket with 2 copper HG wth something between.

 

[slabghost]

Paper is on both sides of the copper. Not two copper gaskets with paper between.

 

[joedrum]

did a lot of work on the heads today still more to do going for the mirror finish this time ...

 

[backlander]

Just a thought joe, totally out of the box, may not even be possible for it to occur. If you remove material, (shave) the head as you are doing, is there a possibility that the head bolts could be too long as they bottom out in the block ? When the bolts bottom out you could still see 40 ft pounds of torque but the head itsef may have enough clearance that it is not clamped down the full 40. It wouldn't take much over length on the bolt to let the gasket not seal even if the head appears clamped to the eye. I am assuming that the bolt holes don't pass all the way through the block and the head bolts do nearly bottom out. I May be letting my ignorance show but it won't be the first time. :smilie_happy: :smilie_happy:

 

[slabghost]

Bolts have been checked not bottoming. Gasket is almost double stock thickness so materials removed are a non issue. Good thing to check though. Thanks.

 

[Ansimp]

The paper gasket should burn imho. If it was me Joe I would just use the aviation gasket around the water and oil galleys and keep it back from the compression/ combustion sealing area. I have used Hylomar spray in the past on conventional gaskets with good success so that maybe another option for you.
https://www.derek.com.au/gud.html
Below the Korode Cure is the Hylomar write up.

 

[joedrum]

pics

the pics make it look a bit worse than it is ...but there a way go id say then there the block that needs to be smoothed..looks like ill busy all day doing this

 

[joedrum]

after all my failures with copper gaskets so far im learning a bit also ...it is important that heads are flat as they are the thing that has the most surface area to clamp down on the block ....but it has so much surface area that is pretty much 10 times or more not going to cause a problem sealeng as compared to the block ...it seem everyone of the blow out spots have been around the 6 Oclock area in the both sides ...it is also where i had the least amount of cylinder sleeve truest complete surface ..meaning where the bolts are is like the slightly higher around the outside of the water jacket area ..so i need to get this better ...in fact all the cylinder sleeve needs to be completely smooth to stand a chance for copper to work ....so i see myself working on this awhile ...i have time too so i will ..this is the most credicle area there is ,,bottom side of the gasket and sleeve contact and where all the pressure is at ....heads are a way distance second place concern

 

[Ansimp]

:good:

 

[dan filipi]

Checking across the face of a good used head gasket I have it's apparent the metal sealing ring at the cylinder sleeve is slightly higher than the surrounding gasket. Since the cylinder sleeve is at equal deck height as machined from the factory it appears this higher ring is necessary to seal, at least wise considering joes copper is thicker than Eric used. Considering this my opinion is a height difference needs to be modded in, at least in the case of copper only without a compression ring.
Looking at other newer model head gaskets, they are basically stamped tin with compression/sealing rings. Seems a oldwing gasket made like these would be much better than simply a flat sheet of metal.

 

[AApple]

dan filipi » Fri Apr 14, 2017 10:44 am[/url]":c2krfh7f]
... it's apparent the metal sealing ring at the cylinder sleeve is slightly higher than the surrounding gasket. Since the cylinder sleeve is at equal deck height as machined from the factory it appears this higher ring is necessary to seal....Considering this my opinion is a height difference needs to be modded in, at least in the case of copper only without a compression ring.

Edzachary what I pointed out earlier. The fire ring around the cylinder bore(on the head gaskets) is designed to compress when torqued down, making a good seal around the cylinder bore. This is why you can't (or shouldn't) ever re-use a normal, composition type head gasket....the fire ring has already been compressed. :good:

 

[dan filipi]

To expand on this more I made a video showing an obvious difference in deck to sleeve height that I wasn't aware of until Joe pointed it out to me in a chat.
Joe is now working on removing this difference. I tip my hat to you Joe attempting this all by hand :hi:

It becomes pretty obvious seeing this that getting a copper gasket to seal will be very difficult if even possible without the aid of a sealing ring of some sort to make up the difference, since the "squish" from the head bolted on across a flat plane will exert equal pressure across the entire gasket except that it will exert less pressure on the cylinder sleeve because it is lower, where the most clamp down on the copper is needed and cannot be had.

Interestingly this height difference is most pronounced where we see most head gaskets blow.

Comments welcome.

[video]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j4_7sBCDr9s[/video]

 

[dan filipi]

ekvh » April 9th, 2017, 6:26 pm[/url]":35fkb5cu]
Here is a pic of mine after a few hundred, maybe a thousand miles. You can sure see the permatex aviation sealant stayed put. How many thousandths thick did you go with? Anything experienced eyes notice?

What are "experienced eyes" suppose to notice?

 

[Ansimp]

Poor crush/sealing point at 11 o'clock on the rh cyl of the bottom photo. It would actually be 7 o'clock on the front cyl if it was installed on the rh side of the engine.

 

[joedrum]

pics ..

ok its became obvious that the sleeves were barely up to where the block was ..i had seen this earlier and so i filed the block some til i thought the sleeve was there and it was ..but the sleeves were quite rough on top and a lot of up and down going on and flat across the entire sleeve cast and sleeve ..none of this held any pressure what so ever ...

so when i was talked into trying this again i really went after thigs trying to get a complete edge all across the sleeve ...to get this totally i had to work on the block big time ...using the steel liner on the pistons as a true point and using a razor blade to cut the block and outside of the sleeve ...sheesh this was a lot to true sleeves flat and block ..the top pic block side is done id say the bottom is close ..but im going to stop right here ..im not going to even try the copper gaskets ..i already have to flush everything crankcase and cooling system spent 4 to five time the cost of goo gaskets ..i never use sealers and have bought three different kinds ..had to buy zylene to clean things up after failures ..got water in the oil through three failures ...will have to flush and clean crankcase ..as there was no way to keep all shaving out of motor tho i tred hard to ..colling system also ...im ok with where things are at ..but i dont suggest anyone try copper gaskets ..it possible they might work now ..but im toast on the whole deal ..especially doing it all by hand ...

if you got to go goo sealer of some kind whats the point goo can fail ...after 10 pages of thread eric finally says his leaks ...well id never do something like this unlees it all copper and no goo ...i was going for something better ..what i got was a mess and some true info ..

the block on oldwing motor and sleeves are in no way true ..if you have small enough strait edge you will run into block in places ...this will hold the copper off the sleevs enough that they will not seal and stand no chance of lasting at all ..in my opinion ...

joedrum recomends not to try copper or solid gasket on oldwings ..blocks are simply not true enough no matter how flat the heads are ..

the thread is over as me doing copper gaskets ... :fiddle: :doh: oh2:

 

[joedrum]

well i can see the goo pushed back outside the sleeve zone and im sure it leaked combustion into cooling system eric

 

[Ansimp]

Hopefully this now works out for you Joe.
I think that there is a lot to be said for the genuine head gaskets. :good:

 

[joedrum]

well not many people go as far as i do to try and really make something work tony ...i dont think any manufacture out there dose anything good enough to use solid gaskets anymore ...they adjusted to the tolerances of goo gaskets can provide and manufacture accordingly ..this was a step down in quality id say previous manufacture of motors ...tho goo gaskets have there pluses ..they also have there negitives ...on oldwings that basically run very hot with there epa lean set up and some of the others things done like heat shields and fan sensors that get to where they dont work properly ...things can get out of hand quickly ...these are very old bikes ..the amount of trash build up in the cooling systems from head gasket degrading can be huge over the yrs and improper coolants used ..sticking to the walls of everything in the cooling system ...stuff like this would never happen with solid gaskets ..the pressures of stock oldwings is not that great at all ....so there are huge negitives here ...like many i never dreamed how off honda actually made everything .... :shock:

what needs to be stressed here and all oldwingers need to know is that blocks are way off as in flat block and sleeves together...in all yrs ive been on the forums ive never heard one thing on this reality ever mentioned ...if i had i would have went strait there to do things ..not be all about making heads flat and worry about warped heads ....the first try of copper heads gaskets i didnt even do anything to the block thinking honda had that part covered ...sheesh it was instant failure ...everyone one thought is was all about getting the heads flat and by me doing it by hand ..i had to have screwed it up ..

it became clear once i looked at the block things were way off ..so i file the block to where things were touching the sleeves at least some everywhere ..but his didnt work either it held longer but then blew out ...so tried the aviation sealant ..this lasted even longer but then blew again ....this last go around was to get all the sleeve flat to where the top of the liner is ....things are very close now the bottom head in the last pis i put up needs a touch more work when i get refreshed ...

im going to put goo gaskets on and save the copper gaskets till later on when i have more time to mess with it ...maybe ...

theres no doubt in my mind that even goo gaskets blow a lot on oldwings and for me i clearly see why ...work done on heads trying to get sealants off and pins in the way and poor tolerances of manufacture add up to a considerable challenge for anything to last real long

the are so stuck in my motor its ridicules ..i thinking of trying to get them totally out ..and they be gone forever when im up to working on this after easter ...the oil orifice is all one needs to hang gasket on ...

to me copper gasket with sealer used is no advance on things and something that will fail and no better than goo gaskets ...maybe cleaner for cooling system but im sure reliability will go down from goo gaskets used ....

on a different note i was surprised at the restrictions in the cooling system feed to everything ...water jacket area is like a 3/8" hole maybe a bit bigger each side ..also the heads are quit restricted to feed also ...so its my opinion feed is below pump output id say ...not making a deal out of it ..just passing alone what i saw ...

 

[joedrum]

put regular stock gaskets in hooch....... all things better now it seems ...went on one ride so far seems like everything is back to normal...