Tuning the VW Plenum Manifold, Adding a Venturi to the Tube Runners

[AApple]

:headscratch:
I haven't really been following all these different threads on similar subjects, but I took the time to read thru this one, and am wondering just what the heck is it that you are trying to do/find?
A venturi is meant to speed up air as it passes a point.
A choke is meant to decrease the amount of air.

If what you're attempting to do is get a fast intake charge into the head, why not stick a vacuum gauge fitting on the intake runner right at the head. The original runners have one already...the one used for synching the carbs. On your spiffy grab rails, you would need to drill into them for that.
The point being, take a measurement at the head, do a mod on the runners coming from the intake manifold, then take another reading. The higher the vacuum signal AT the head, the faster the air/fuel mixture is getting into the combustion chamber. If the vac reading goes down, you went the wrong way with the mods. Would this not be an easier, quicker way to determine which mods worked, and which made it worse?
:headscratch:

 

[westgl]

The More I know, I find it is a case of, the more I dont know.

I am constantly learning,

I am not sure that is all about speed of charge now.

It is not just speed up of the charge and air/fuel mixture, going on here, there may be more to it than just that, each Pulse is pulled into and through almost timed, speed and location of the pulse needs to be timed, and needs to be pulled through in a certain manner.

Honda has some great engineers, trying to figure this all out, can be tough.

But If i learn a couple of things that i did not know before it may be worth it, for fine tuning my bike.

Up to this point it seems Like I have been doing the opposite, of what Honda has been doing on their GL1500.

Who knows, there could be quite a bit of lost performance, whether it be much better low/mid range or just better MPG.

 

[westgl]

AApple » Fri Oct 18, 2013 8:54 am[/url]":1jewqroo]
:headscratch:
I haven't really been following all these different threads on similar subjects, but I took the time to read thru this one, and am wondering just what the heck is it that you are trying to do/find?
A venturi is meant to speed up air as it passes a point.
A choke is meant to decrease the amount of air.

If what you're attempting to do is get a fast intake charge into the head, why not stick a vacuum gauge fitting on the intake runner right at the head. The original runners have one already...the one used for synching the carbs. On your spiffy grab rails, you would need to drill into them for that.
The point being, take a measurement at the head, do a mod on the runners coming from the intake manifold, then take another reading. The higher the vacuum signal AT the head, the faster the air/fuel mixture is getting into the combustion chamber. If the vac reading goes down, you went the wrong way with the mods. Would this not be an easier, quicker way to determine which mods worked, and which made it worse?
:headscratch:

I may do this, to see what effect it has on the butt dyno.

 

[joedrum]

westgl » Fri Oct 18, 2013 1:07 pm[/url]":3s54h4uc]
The More I know, I find it is a case of, the more I dont know.

I am constantly learning,

I am not sure that is all about speed of charge now.

It is not just speed up of the charge and air/fuel mixture, going on here, there may be more to it than just that, each Pulse is pulled into and through almost timed, speed and location of the pulse needs to be timed, and needs to be pulled through in a certain manner.

Honda has some great engineers, trying to figure this all out, can be tough.

But If i learn a couple of things that i did not know before it may be worth it, for fine tuning my bike.

Up to this point it seems Like I have been doing the opposite, of what Honda has been doing on their GL1500.

Who knows, there could be quite a bit of lost performance, whether it be much better low/mid range or just better MPG.

well it seems to me ...the more I learn from the people who claim to know ...I find out its more bs than reality ...anymore id rather talk to you or someone I know who time in than people who are just papered know it alls and experience of nothing .... :cheeky: :smilie_happy: :builder: :mrgreen:

 

[dan filipi]

westgl » Fri Oct 18, 2013 10:07 am[/url]":jgglmcu6]
The More I know, I find it is a case of, the more I dont know.

I am constantly learning,

I am not sure that is all about speed of charge now.

It is not just speed up of the charge and air/fuel mixture, going on here, there may be more to it than just that, each Pulse is pulled into and through almost timed, speed and location of the pulse needs to be timed, and needs to be pulled through in a certain manner.

Honda has some great engineers, trying to figure this all out, can be tough.

But If i learn a couple of things that i did not know before it may be worth it, for fine tuning my bike.

Up to this point it seems Like I have been doing the opposite, of what Honda has been doing on their GL1500.

Who knows, there could be quite a bit of lost performance, whether it be much better low/mid range or just better MPG.

Yes well Jungo's design sort of through me off in this whole deal since his is idling good, he has smooth acceleration from idle up, and 45 mpg 2 up loaded. All with no extra venturi's (chokes) or anything to "speed up" flow in the runners, just straight pipe.

Funny, maybe the simplest is the best and we're all over thinking this.

 

[82a]

dan filipi » Sun Oct 20, 2013 11:12 am[/url]":eklvql4u]

westgl » Fri Oct 18, 2013 10:07 am[/url]":eklvql4u]
The More I know, I find it is a case of, the more I dont know.

I am constantly learning,

I am not sure that is all about speed of charge now.

It is not just speed up of the charge and air/fuel mixture, going on here, there may be more to it than just that, each Pulse is pulled into and through almost timed, speed and location of the pulse needs to be timed, and needs to be pulled through in a certain manner.

Honda has some great engineers, trying to figure this all out, can be tough.

But If i learn a couple of things that i did not know before it may be worth it, for fine tuning my bike.

Up to this point it seems Like I have been doing the opposite, of what Honda has been doing on their GL1500.

Who knows, there could be quite a bit of lost performance, whether it be much better low/mid range or just better MPG.

Yes well Jungo's design sort of through me off in this whole deal since his is idling good, he has smooth acceleration from idle up, and 45 mpg 2 up loaded. All with no extra venturi's (chokes) or anything to "speed up" flow in the runners, just straight pipe.

Funny, maybe the simplest is the best and we're all over thinking this.

+1 get the basics going, then fiddle away all you like for those x-tras, my 2c is having no choke for cold starts will put alota folks off, an i'm pretty sure it's been done already, just haven't seen the detauils

if i was going SCC, i'd be playing with the single barrel pict first cos all the basic are sorted that imo, most folks are after and will ask about.

though cold starts don't seem to be an issue right now, i don't remember the last time i used an engine that didn't have a dedicated cold start option,

ideally also, most folks aren't interested in welding/brazing, the option to get up and running cheap is a game changer in dealing with the cod catcher world ,

i love to fiddle and tweak but what interests me most right now is what is known to work, cheap , easy and good to go

 

[joedrum]

well theres plenty of that ...the whole ideal we got bikes getting over 40mpg is something that hasn't happen in yrs on other info of this kind ...its hard to argue with anything that has been done here as it has out paced all other info and time period by a huge margin ....not only that ...the info from here has surpassed after market deals in mpg territory big time ....so sometimes when things are open I mean wide open and discounters are run off if they cant back there discounts up ....has made it clear how things get done ... even if it dose lead back to simple ....at least here it gets there ....seems nothing ever leads anywhere ...when the discounters rule ....same reason the world in general is in the shape it is ....discounters rule ...and nothing advances to the good or solution or learn anything except bs and corruption

 

[westgl]

My thinking is jungos is like what I have been thinking, reverse of what I have been doing.

Jungos is
More like my rev.1

Open or larger ID at the vw plenum and smaller ID toward the head.

Look at the GL1500 carbs are more centered in the engine and with long runners the runners appear to be more opened at the carb end and smaller at the head

Engine w/ fuel metering more centered
GL1500 head intake ports are only .960" ID
GL1800 head intake ports are only 1.100"ID

Fuel metering very close to head port
GL1000 head intake ports are 1.412" ID
GL1100 head intake ports are 1.430" ID
GL1200 head intake ports are 1.258" ID *** this is close, would these heads add to a higher engine torque?

 

[joedrum]

well im sure of one thing hooch has large pots heads large intake valve ...all the things that the papered engineers say losses low end torque and that the stock 1200 would have more low end torque... this is obviously not true in hooches case ..it has low end torque than any Goldwing ive ever been on no matter what year or size ....

 

[82a]

just clearing up a point here (from post #16 above)

82a » Thu Oct 17, 2013 8:44 pm[/url]":1orvcco9]
haven't run across any more info, not that i looked much

joedrum » Thu Oct 17, 2013 9:59 am[/url]":1orvcco9]
okay im glad you worded this just right ... but im afraid captain discount and tom are really off base here

when you choke down that close to the head ...with smaller opening than the valve ...its causes resistance drag ..harder to turn the crank ....when it its that far from the carburetor ...its almost useless in an oldwing situation there air speed at the carb is a problem with the smaller displacement motor of the oldwing .....this pretty much why 1200s heads vortex type stuff are failures in performance and mpg ...

 

[westgl]

Joe hooch is a different animal all together.

I was just thinking out loud, between all stock engines and some comparisons.

I was looking at the direction that Honda went.

They must have thought the longer runners, smaller head intake ports, & less carbs was better too.

The GL1500 & GL1800 FI were the direction honda went to, be it for economy, smog.

Funny that the GL1800 head port size is 1.100" ID with 300cc per cylinder same as GL1200

That 1.100" ID is close to Rev.1 tube ID,

Rev.1 did not have any chokes in the VW plenum Outlet.

 

[dan filipi]

westgl » Sun Oct 20, 2013 4:56 pm[/url]":1qpqc8bs]
Joe hooch is a different animal all together.

I was just thinking out loud, between all stock engines and some comparisons.

I was looking at the direction that Honda went.

They must have thought the longer runners, smaller head intake ports, & less carbs was better too.

The GL1500 & GL1800 FI were the direction honda went to, be it for economy, smog.

Funny that the GL1800 head port size is 1.100" ID with 300cc per cylinder same as GL1200

That 1.100" ID is close to Rev.1 tube ID,

Rev.1 did not have any chokes in the VW plenum Outlet.

West, your rev 1 with hose (and I believe some sort of chokes) you reported getting 52 mpg.
I gotta wonder why your not pursuing that design?
I sure would.

I understand you said there was some hose collapsing going on and maybe some hose degredation but why it seems, have you abandoned that design?
Or am I mis-understanding where your headed with all these revisions?

 

[slabghost]

Yep! I've been wondering that myself.

 

[westgl]

No I have not abandoned Rev.1

or at least the bases of it.

I wanted to test a few designs, to see what is good and what is not.

If i had collapsing hose before, i am not sure how to duplicate that, with rigid tube, other than a venturi.

I have some parts coming, to make a more durable and better version (I hope) of Rev.1, and i am waiting for the parts to show up they are based on the info i have been talking about that link me back to Rev.1

I hope to receive parts this week.

 

[joedrum]

well im glad captian moron is back in his discount control center ......seems he read this thread bigtime ...captian moron ought to be glad when saunders went to its new look of advertising nightmare of a forum...I couldn't log in anymore ...never cared enough after change to get back on .....its just irritating to the eyes to be on there forum with all the pop ups....

this guy has done more to hurt the single carb set up on oldwings than anybody on the planet with fat headed bs of his own belief ...that he knows it all and everyone else is a moron .....that is the definition of a moron....

like anything else ..you have been at it for yrs ...you have compiled thousands of words over the yrs of complete nonsense ...held back things that you thought were the secrets ....misled others ...I could go on and on whats the point ...

here at classic me and others have ....came up with our own carb sizing except for westgl who talked to you ...but no one here knew that till mine was running ...no one took anything from you ....and certainly not me I dispise the paper fools of this world and know through experience ....that sitting in desk getting papered statis above others is just that nothing else ...when it comes to actually doing something they cant ....but they can take test real good ...to me I don't waste my life on such fruitless living .....

the fact still remains captian discount ...here at classic we have produced the best single carb setups in short time im not talking just me ...idont have the names right here ...but we have grab bar manifolds that was posted here one member found and looks as good or better than yours .....we have rubber hose manifolds like mine that perform like a rocket on my 1200 mod bike ....we have one in the process that has a more strait to the port manifold ...that in its test rig has gotten 40mpg ...
we have wests designs that you seem to be going after him now when last week he was your buddy .....

it don't matter what its called choked or tuned tunnel port inductions ...it aint yours ... nor is it location ....im not even going to get into your argument of placement as in where ...you don't own that either ...sheesh

then there jungo ....a guy ...who dosnt use chokes of any kind ...just a few months ago he never had any time at all into oldwings first one ......we at classic helped him get through some really rough go at getting enterprise on the road ...the bikes name ....and this guy has tried to different carbs ...is now on the tom dft carb has video up ....ride reports ...mpg figure of 45 mpg ....and is so far completely satisfied .....personally im so impressed by his effort of the intent of coming up with the best and easiest setup for our oldwings ...im getting his set up for my bike made by him for my bike hooch ...if I had a choice between his or yours free id pick his as he is beleavable

people like you want to sit back and discount a small s curve in the runners as big deal ...when in fact there's a u turn at the head sheesh.....enough said ....ill go with info that is back up ...not discounting that's back up with nothing but hot air of anger