1985 LTD Side Stand Interlock and Indicator Light Circuit

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Denver

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Always seems to be a fly in the ointment somewhere on an electrical modification in my experience's. :sensored: But the satisfaction lasts so much longer than the issue, when you finally figure it out :good:
 

Rednaxs60

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Yes, there is always something to get your attention especially in electric/electronics and the electronics is not my strong suit. However, I have made some headway and Roncar over on GW Docs has helped.

Roncar pointed out that I had missed the install of a diode - went over his circuit again and admittedly missed the diode that he pointed out. Will install one.

Question though, the original start circuit is such that after the bike is started, there is no more power flowing through the start circuit. When the bike is shifted into gear or into neutral, power to light the shift indicator and the neutral light is at the instrument panel and it grounds down through the gearshift sensor.

With the side stand circuit there is power flowing from relay-R1 through to ground at all times through either the side stand switch or the neutral switch. The wire connection of the ground wire through the neutral switch is also connected to the neutral wire going to the instrument panel. My thought is that if there is still power on this neutral wire from the side stand circuit, if a ground is found somewhere else in the circuitry, this power may try to connect to this ground - something similar to plumbing, water takes the easiest path, or multiple paths.

The issue with the neutral light being on and the neutral shift indicator light going out when shifted into gear persists even when I return the circuitry back to the original condition (take the new circuit out of play).

I have been looking at my side stand circuit and may have to install two more relays. Here are some new thoughts on the circuit. I have added relays because I want to duplicate the conditions as per the original circuit. here is the new schematic:
1985 GW Starter System 008.jpg


Power for all three relays would be from the 12 VDC power supply now used for relay-R1. The first relay-R3 would be a controlling relay using the neutral switch as the ground and would be used to energize relay-R2 that would ground relay-R1 on start. This second relay-R2 would use the side stand switch ground (with the side stand down) to complete its coil circuit. When the side stand is in the up position the second relay-R2 would be de-energized because it would lose its ground and no more power would flow through to the neutral switch ground. Relay-R1 would still be powered because it would now be grounded through the side stand switch and the bike would continue to run. The controlling relay-R3 would also de-energize because the bike would be in gear and the ground for this relay would be lost.

When the bike is started and the side stand circuit is in play, if the bike is shifted into gear with the side stand down, the ground for the controlling relay-R3 would be lost and the bike would shut off.

I would also think that relay-R3 should be an on-delay timer or a latching relay. With an on-delay timer or latching relay, timing begins when voltage is applied. When the time has expired, the relay energizes and contacts close — and remain closed until voltage is removed from the coil. The reason I mention this is that when the bike is running and you are riding, every time you go through neutral there could be a momentary ground provided to relay-R3 causing it to close/open in quick succession. Not good for a relay in my thoughts. Switching to neutral for short periods of time should not be an issue. A delay of say 10 to 15 seconds for relay-R3 to energize would not be an issue on start as well.

This is starting to get interesting. Learning more as I go.

Comments?
 

Rednaxs60

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Having a good discussion regarding the circuit on the other forum with Roncar. I understand what the diode does; however, what is to stop the shift indicator system from applying a ground to the side stand circuit? Diode is a one way street.

As for the dash and shift sensor, did the checks as per the troubleshooting manual. Connector is in behind the headlight and is done with the connector separated.

The first check was the dash. This is where you find the various gearshift sensor wires in the male half of the connector and, with the ignition on, ground each wire. The gear indication should appear on the dash.

The gearshift sensor check is a continuity check. Find the respective wires in the female half of the connector and check for continuity.

Gear Sensor - Continuity - Wire Colour - Dash Indication (read in four columns)

1 - Good - Yel - Yes
N - Good - Lt Grn/Grn - Yes
2 - Poor - Blu/Yel - No
3 - Good - Wht/Blu - Yes
4 - Good - Red/Wht - Yes
OD – Good - Grn/Org - Yes

According to the manual, if there is a dash indicator out - replace dash. All other indicators on the dash are working.
If there is no continuity in one position, and the wire and fuse are good, replace gearshift sensor. Gearshift sensor may be weak, May not be a bad idea to replace if one can be found.

This is where I attribute the above issue to the side stand interlock/indicator light circuit. Possible feed of 12 VDC to where it should not have gone, or it was bound to happen. From the results above it would appear that a new/used dash is in order, or has anyone taken one apart, investigated, found defective item, replaced item and then reinstalled. I will be researching this before I pull the dash out and replace. Have read some threads and it may be possible.

If I cannot repair the dash and have to replace, I will be looking at changing the ground system to keep it away from the geaarshift indicator system. Will start looking at where this can be done.

Time to put the front end back together. Still able to ride it. More to follow.

Cheers
 

Rednaxs60

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I have done more thinking on the side stand circuit. I agree with putting in the diode, have to do more research on how a diode works and applications of - electronics is not my strong suit as I have mentioned; however, I do not have one on hand but do have a relay that I will use to do the same job and isolate the new and original circuits. My thoughts are on this schematic:
1985 GW Starter System 009.jpg

Relay-R2 coil is powered from the same power supply to relay-R1 and indicator light - may look into a different switched source, but not necessary - these relays need very little power to work. The coil is grounded through the neutral switch. The internal switch of this relay is connects the ground wire from relay-R1 to the ground of the indicator light that is grounded through the side stand switch in the down position.

When the bike is started, relay-R2 is energized and grounds the side stand circuit through the side side stand switch. If the bike is shifted into gear, relay-R2 is de-energized and the side stand circuit is no longer grounded, shutting the bike down. Shifting back into neutral energizes relay-R2 and grounds the side stand circuit allowing you to start the bike again.

With the side stand up, the side stand circuit is grounded through the side stand and shifting the bike into gear de-energizes relay-R2, but the bike will continue to run.

The other benefit for myself is relay-R2 isolates the gearshift circuit(s) from the new side stand circuit completely. Since I cannot categorically state that the install of the side stand circuit without the diode in the ground wire to the neutral switch had some affect on the dash gear indicator(s), isolating the two circuits when riding the bike appeals to me.

Will be installing the second relay and reporting back. More to follow.
 

Rednaxs60

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Been a good afternoon. Installed the second relay and wired in accordance with my schematic. I did a trial run and the bike started with the side stand switch in the NC position (side stand down). Put the bike in gear, bike quit. With the side stand switch in the NO position (side stand up) - bike starts and goes into gear.

Here's an interesting observation, all dash functions work including gear shift indications. Don't ask me why, but the electron gods are with me.

Another interesting issue, when the bike is started with the side stand switch in the NC position (side stand down) and the bike is started, simulating putting the side stand in the up position - side stand switch NO, the bike shuts down but can be restarted immediately. When this happened I kept the bike shut off and listened to relay-R1, it was cycling.

I checked the new relay and when the side stand switch is in the NO (side stand up position) it was still energized. This has caused a slight glitch in the circuit. I have disconnected one of the wire at pin 87 of this new relay and everything has straightened out.

This is going to be more of a challenge then I thought.

Had breakfast with my son-in-law this morning (he's batching it for the weekend) and he mentioned using a semiconductor diode in the circuit instead of a simple one-way diode. I looked these up on line and apparently it requires a minimum amount of current before it works - my simplistic view.

When I had the system hooked up yesterday with the grounding wire through the neutral switch hooked up, the circuit worked as I expected it should, as soon as the side stand was in the up position, the ground transfer was seamless, and the bike stayed running; however, the electron gremlins had a field day.

So back to the diode. Maybe putting a diode in the wire between pin 86 and the neutral switch is still required. Still want to keep the second relay in the circuit.

Will look into getting a suitable diode and place it in the circuit as it is now wired, can only help.

More to follow.
 

Rednaxs60

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Update - putting a diode in the side stand interlock/indicator light circuit has been brought to the fore on several occasions. After yesterday where I got the bike operating as it should but still had an issue with the grounding from the second relay, I relented and put a diode in my circuit as depicted in Roncar's schematic as follows:
Roncar cicuit 001.jpg

I took the second relay out of the equation, plugged in a spare clutch diode that I have (intended for my second '85 LTD - it needs one) and the circuit works as intended.

The transition from side stand down to side stand up is seamless, indicator light is on and off respectively, bike shuts off when put into gear with the side stand down, and everything works on the dash including the gear indicator.

Learned a lot from this mod and will post my finished schematic. Getting a better handle on the electronic world.

Cheers
 

Rednaxs60

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Here is the updated and final schematic for my side stand interlock/indicator light circuit:
1985 GW Starter System 012.jpg


This ends my week long modification. Learned a lot and look forward to my next challenge.

Cheers
 

Rednaxs60

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Been thinking about the side stand switch requirement to finish off the side stand interlock/indicator light circuit. The side stand switch I have bought is too large for the space available. I have an 1800 and have been looking at the side stand and switch, and comparing it to the 1200. I noticed that where the spring on the 1200 attaches to the frame - the small post - that the orientation of this post to the side stand bolt
1200 Side stand original.jpg
is similar to the orientation of the side stand switch post to the side stand bolt on the 1800.
1800 Side stand original.jpg

With this in mind I had removed the 1800 side stand a couple of days ago and determined that it would fit on the 1200. Today I took the side stand switch off the 1800 and fitted the side stand parts to the 1800 and tested the 1200 side stand interlock/indicator light system.

The parts used:
1800 Side Stand Parts.jpg

The 1800 side stand switch is an SPDT switch and waterproof, exactly what is needed. I will be using the 1800 side stand because it has the hole in it for the side stand switch rheostat "knob" to fit in.
1800 Side Stand and Switch.jpg


As I mentioned the 1800 side stand switch is a SPDT switch. The wiring for this switch is:
1800 Side Stand Switch Wiring.jpg



I installed the 1800 side stand and side stand switch on the 1200:
1800 side stand and side stand switch on 1200.jpg


You can also see the wires I used to test the circuit.

I tested the circuit with the temporary wiring and it worked as expected. This is what the finished install should look like when I get all the parts:
1800 side stand switch installed for use.jpg


I mentioned that the spring for the 1200 side stand is on the outside of the stand and the 1800 spring is on the inside of the stand. Making the decision to use the 1800 side stand, I will have to figure out how to attach the spring for the 1800 side stand. The post used where the spring for the 1200 side stand attaches to the frame appears to be a welded stud and the hole drilled for this post goes thru the frame:
1200 Side stand original.jpg


My thoughts are that this post can be removed and a new post installed that goes thru to the other side to provide a connecting point for the 1800 side stand spring. I would need to install the new post and go to my local welding shop and have it tack welded, but this should not be an issue. I will wait until I have all the parts needed then install a new post.

More to follow
 

slabghost

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Could just drill and tap the inside and install a small allen head cap screw with thread lock. That should do well for holding the spring.
 

Rednaxs60

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Thought about doing exactly that; however, no space for drill or tap. Could remove existing post, tap from outside and use red locktite to secure - don't imagine it will move once cured in situ. Looking at the 1800 spring post, it is about an inch long with a groove near the end of the post.

Thanks for the thought - I didn't think about tapping the hole thru the frame piece or using red loctite until I read your post. Should be able to install a lock nut on the outside portion of the post.

Cheers
 

Rednaxs60

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Short note to update thread. I have the side stand switch installed and the circuit operating as it should. Here is the finished product:
1200 Side Stand Switch Installed for use.jpg

I will have more pictures of what I did, but today was to get it installed and operating. I have not finished with the wiring because I have used the parts from my 1800 and will wait until the parts I ordered come in for the final fit.

I had to use the 1200 side stand. There was no way I could figure out how to get the 1800 side stand spring installed. I ground the existing side stand spring post off and threaded part way in the hole that was there - 3/8 tap and used a 3/8 inch bolt to secure the side stand switch and spring. I did use the 1800 side stand spring.

Most of the afternoon was fitting and thinking about the issue(s). I have trialed the circuit and it works as advertised.

Will have more photos and detailed write up when I get my parts so I can put my 1800 back together.

I have to mention that had it not been for the 1800 being here I never would have thought to use 1800 side stand parts. It does make for a nice install though.

Cheers
 

Rednaxs60

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Finished up the side stand interlock/indicator light circuit this afternoon. The parts came in so I was able to put the 1800 back together before finishing the 1200.

Had to take the installed unit off the bike to modify the side stand switch. Took some picture to show what I did yesterday. As I mentioned, once I had the way ahead firmly thought out in my mind, I took my angle grinder and removed the the old side stand spring post. I measured this pin so that a small mod in the future to replace the 3/8 inch bolt The side stand location with the post removed:
side stand post location.jpg
The old post that was removed is 0.317 inch in diameter:
old side stand spring post.jpg


The next item that had to be addressed was the side stand switch modification. I cut the old connector off and soldered the new connector on. Like using these connectors, work well, relatively waterproof, low profile, and readily available.
side stand switch connector modified.jpg
I had to file down about 1 inch or so of the bolt from the bolt head to accept the side stand spring and switch.

Once I had this done, I started to assemble and install the switch permanently. I used the GL1800 side stand switch, side stand bolt, and spring. The reason to use the GL1800 side stand bolt is that it is drilled and tapped to secure the side stand switch. The 1200 side stand bolt has a 17 mm head, the 1800 side stand bolt has a 14 mm head that fits the 1800 side stand switch:
Side stand bolts and rheostat.jpg


To accept the 1800 side stand switch, had to drill a pilot hole for the 1800 side stand switch rheostat pin:
GL1200 side stand modified for side stand switch.jpg


The bolt I used in place of the old 1200 side stand post is a 3/8 by 1-1/2 inch bolt. Once I had the old post out, I tapped the existing hole about 1/2 way to accept the new bolt.
Side stand switch and spring post.jpg


Once I had everything available, I installed and secured the new side stand assembly. Here is a picture of the side stand assembly installed and wired:
side stand switch installed and wired.jpg


I installed the side stand spring, put the accessories and foot peg back in place and trialed the circuit to make sure it worked as expected. It did, job done and on to the next small project. Finished product:
1200 Side Stand Switch Installed for use.jpg


Cheers
 
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