hooch blew a head gasket

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yep the rebel type 4 set up ...just love the home depot grab bar set up ..first done by shovelking .....yrs of riding under this system and no blow outs like what happen in the cm jessco set up plenty of give and ultimate sealing at the head witch is my set up...for cool chared and anti heat added to SCC set up im a rebel there also ..the no heat system is me
 
Joe - More flow is a result of engine block design, rad, water pump size, and the likes. Unless you are going to put in a 1200 engine, I would surmise there is very little can be done regarding the cooling system on your bike.

Having said this, I've put together some information I gathered with the help of Dave in Abbotsford (forum moniker of SilverDave) regarding cooling of the 1200. It is about the 1200 but I think the information is relevant to the 1000/1100 models as well.

When I did my alt mod on my 1200, I had an issue with the cooling system operating hotter than I wanted so I did some research on it. Another fellow up here chimed in and between us we came up with a reasonable premise as to why the 1200s tend to "heat up" at low speed and while idling. The reader's digest version is that Honda designed the cooling system to "just" meet the requirements of cruising on the highway and expect that there will be minimal idling/slow speed operation to aggravate this. I had a new rad core put in and the older gentleman was very familiar with the old Hondas. He mentioned that Honda had designed athe rad as a high efficiency rad that was just big enough to do the job. It's not as large as the 1100.

Another issue I had was the aftermarket grill covering the rad. It reduced cooling area because of the design by 20%. It is now history.

Dave and I did some looking into the history of the 1200 and found:

If your antifreeze is new and topped up, your fan is clean and working properly, and your thermostat is a Honda OEM and installed with the hole right way up and so on, then the 1980 Honda engineers apparently did their job as required. The cooling system was originally designed so that at "speed" it worked perfectly, and at slow driving speeds, the fan was "just enough" to bring it down to 5 bars (on our digital readout). The cooling system design is just on the cooling cusp of doing just what it is supposed to do.

Dave sent me this information as reference material (I've edited it a bit).

Regardless of what engine it is is that there are three key issues that affect cooling efficiency: radiator surface area, coolant speed through the system, and the amount of airflow through the radiator. These three functions determine the efficiency of the system as expressed in Btu of heat rejection per minute."

So how do his many findings apply to cooling our GL1200’s?

A) Radiator surface area. We are sort stuck here. The rad size and surface area is limited by the frame, and the fairing. The article does mention double layer rads (very expensive), but with our bikes, the rad seems to be about as big as it can be . Its also the correct size, to do just what the 1985 engineers wanted it to do, that is keep it cool at higher speed.

B) Coolant speed - these bikes have a gear driven water pump which does move faster at higher rpm, but the machine is also producing more heat at higher rpm, so its sorta a wash. Older machines used to have a fan belt driven water pump, so you could change the pulley size/ratio, we cannot very easily, without tearing the engine completely apart. In any case, the water pump with its tiny blades does manage to keep a GL1200 cool enough that many of them last 300,000 or more, so I guess its also designed correctly .

C) Amount of airflow - This part, if you are building a hot rod, gets tricky. Firstly, the airflow at high speed appears to be about right. When you go at higher rpm, and faster, the airflow is correct, unless you are puttering thru Death Valley, or Osooyos in our case.

For slow speed cooling: it is recommended:

1. A back mounted, puller fan (which we have);
2. Electric as opposed to fan belt motor driven cooling fans (which we have) - a fan belt driven fan can use up to 30 hp. Big electric fans use just 1 hp;
3. Twin fans, with a good cowling (which we do not have);
4. An air dam to funnel more air up to the rad;
5. Good electrical connection to ground and to 12 volts on the fan circuit; and
6. A carefully tuned and shaped fan blade with approximately ¼ inch clearance to the cowling edge.

In other words, unless you want to create a special back shroud, and better fan blades, with two smaller twin fans - the 1200 has reached the engineering limit of cooling.

Since the 1200 is the last iteration of the 1000 cc block, with a few refinements of course, and that the design engineers at Honda knew that the block was at the limit of going larger, there is not much can be done to it or to the other sizes as well (JMHO).

If you had the available room, I wonder if an off engine water pump would be useful/practical? Possibly changing the rad fan thermo switch to one that has the rad fan operate at a lower temperature.

Just a few thoughts on the issue of cooling.

Cheers
 
nice read ...my bike does have 1200 shortblock as its heart ...and they are geared 12% more flow of coolant than earlier 1100 and 100 motors ...it also has the 1000 bigger radiator ..so i do have more volume in the cooling system ...i dont have the rear fan anymore and have a bigger front fan ...and like the info says ..id say this does impede air to radiator some ...i dont use thermostats anymore but use restrictor plates instead so flow is constant ...my mptor actually runs cooler than any stock oldwing bikes ...but i agree with the info 1200s with there smaller radiator is a problem on 1200s ..it totally takes out the greater flow rate 1200s have over earlier models of oldwings ..i knew all this and is part of the reasons i built my bike the way i did ....its looking more like gasket deterioration than a heat issue on my bike as i look at things ...plus the head gaskets do trash the cooling system up big time on the inside ..i want to flush and clean everything and go copper to keep cooling system trash free ...put in manual switch for stop and go traffic witch i have done befor along with temp sensor set up in combo ..im very curious to how trashy the temp switch is when i pull it it could be working not well from garbage stuck to it
 
I also put in a rad fan switch so I could manually turn it on when in the city, at slow speeds or stop lights. I find this helps quite a bit and I generally turn the rad fan on when I hit 6 bars on the temp indicator. The owner's manual states that with a 10 bar indicator, normal operating range is between 2 and 8 bars. Not willing to hit the upper range.

The 1200 rad is supposed to be a high efficiency rad. Nice to say but a cooler engine is better than a hotter one. Will have to investigate the difference in size between the 1000 and 1200 rads for future reference.

Cheers
 
Too much flow decreases heat transfer and increases over all temperature. The larger radiator and pusher fan do allow for more heat transfer but increased coolant flow will negate the benefits.
 
to me its a simple case it easier to set up a gasket machine with all round holes ...not thinking its a very big deal at all ..certainly the gasket people thought not ..if im going to have one or the other i want more flow personally...

pics

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these pics are on the side that didnt blow ...to me this piston the one all the way up...shows signs of slight seeping and partial piston cleaning from it

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this piston shows complete seal to me

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the head shows the same result partial cleaning on the one piston ...total burn other piston to me ....kind of shows how the gaskets degrade over time ...
 
pics ...
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temp senor looked clean ...but both post would wiggle making me think they might be compromised and plastic was cracked around them

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head shows they looked good as in good burn ..only thing giving it away is the white spots around the valves ..when this blew i went nowhere really both cyliders seemed to be effected

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this cylinder looked to be running great right till the moment of failure

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same here really ...and thats exactly how it acted too ...i was just on the interstate with no problems of running in any way ..when i hit second gear after first from intersection thats when it happen and i didnt get far...i obvious to me the cylinder on the other side was actually degraded more this this side ....
 
Great piece of info Rednax. I'll bet the little extra turning from the different drive gear will help cool more at idle. Too bad for me, I left the 1200 final output shaft in because I swapped to 1200 final drive. Next time my engine's out, I'll have to swap that. I'd forgotten that and the extra drive for the oil pump it provides as well.

I have my aftermarket fan on the front as a puller, I think. I think the modern fan moves more air and draws less juice if installed tight to the radiator. It would be pretty easy to put in a switch where the driver could swap direction of the fan. A pusher when cruising, a puller when sitting and keep the hot air off you and motor.

Any luck with gaskets, Joe?
 
Take your time and prep the heads. Let me know if V has trouble, I can try him for you.

An aside: I'm still in the Philippines for another ten days. I bought a car here, a Mitsubishi Lancer with a 1.3 ltr engine and a----wait for it------- a single cv carb. Never thought I'd see one on a car. It ran great, but smooth acceleration not a jolt. I sold it for what I paid for it, so I pretty much rode around all winter on the cheap.
 
[url=https://classicgoldwings.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=188218#p188218:g63pszx0 said:
ekvh » Mon Mar 20, 2017 2:08 pm[/url]":g63pszx0]
Take your time and prep the heads. Let me know if V has trouble, I can try him for you.

An aside: I'm still in the Philippines for another ten days. I bought a car here, a Mitsubishi Lancer with a 1.3 ltr engine and a----wait for it------- a single cv carb. Never thought I'd see one on a car. It ran great, but smooth acceleration not a jolt. I sold it for what I paid for it, so I pretty much rode around all winter on the cheap.
:good:
 
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well been working on the blown heads side lately ....cooling is being cleaned ...its rather a small feed into cylinder area from the water pump feed witch seems bigger ....right around a 7/16" hole maybe a bit smaller ...for each side ..left and right ...block porchion of water system totally clean now

also working on renewing things and cleaning clylinders pistons and block ....seems prep is everything on copper gaskets so im going to make it better than it ever was to prepare for that ...pic is in the proccess .....left piston is close to done ..right piston is still in rough cleaning ...did work on the piston cut out some ..makeing it smoother ...havnt done anything to the right one yet...deal hear is to make piston smoother an less like to disturb the gas charge ...

block is getting flatten and pressed...cant get perfect with this as it never was to begin with ...edges wil get some treatment ..so when pieces all sit down ...things will be in a smooth press down and consistant ...with no jagged edges ...

doing this all be hand so its taking awhile
 
Nice work Joe. :good:
I was wondering if your head gasket suffering in the cooling jacket area was because of poor performing coolant/antifreeze? :nea:
 
On the topic of annealing the copper head gasket: My old '49 Royal Enfield and the '71 BSA both had copper head gaskets. To anneal them here is what I did:

-do this when your wife is not around
-gently try to bend the gasket so you have an idea how an annealed gasket feels
-clean the gasket really good to remove any oil
-put some cold water in your kitchen sink
-place the gasket on a burner on the stove and turn up to max (I have an electric stove but should work the same for gas)
-when the gasket heats up it will change from copper color to black
-when this happens use a fork to pick up the gasket and drop it into the cold water
-as soon as it hits the water the black will fly off and you have a nice clean copper color
-it is now annealed
-open windows and doors to get rid of any foul smells.
-try bending again to see that it is softer (annealed).
 
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ok working on the head now ....you can see the machining lines ...this all is getting worked on to be flatter ...the lines are getting fat so its getting flatter...the color is getting to where its more stain than stuff now ...but not there yet
 
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well you can see a big difference in this head than the one above with the machining marks ...hmmm guess ill take the machining marks out of the head so its as good as this ones getting ...

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block is cleaning up nice too
 

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