Single Carb Conversion 2 Barrel Progressive Holley,Weber 740 carb

[joedrum]

westgl setup seems to beat stock so far ..hes in disbelief now thinking he made error so will see .. I havnt a clue .. just wasn't an issue for me at the time just wanted to get it working and that did happen ...hooch is a different animal and was able to use a carb that stock oldwings could get to run ....but it wasn't for sure going to get good mpg cause it was to big really for hooch I had to trick the carb with the manifold to get it to work but the to rich thing was never going to get mpg good ... the smaller carb like westgl is using needs no tricks and is as matched for stock oldwings as the stock rack ...in my opinion better than stock ..and is going to beat the stock carbs in mpg bigtime no contest ...that's what this thread is about and its goal of getting rid of parts that are not supported anymore in a reasonable way in cost .. so its a huge saving .. but there are still issues to work on and this thread is complete yet were in the middle of the book in this thread

 

[westgl]

A few pictures i put into my photo album

P1010964

• westgl
• Sep 17, 2013

32DFT Carb Progressive 2bbl. 32/32mm from Langdons Stovebolt

P1010969

• westgl
• Sep 17, 2013

Napa #630 1-1/4"ID Silicone Hose & #632 1-1/2"ID Silicon Hose, #24 S.S. Clamps, VW Type IV...

P1020045

• westgl
• Sep 17, 2013

Shot of All Clamp Adjusters turned Down to hide them and provide a cleaner look

P1020046

• westgl
• Sep 17, 2013

Shot of All Clamp Adjusters turned Down to hide them and provide a cleaner look

dan filipi » Mon Sep 16, 2013 8:52 pm[/url]":fuqjsq3i]
Took a shower, having a beer.
Feel a little better now.

My plan here is if she starts, idles and accelerates then I'll work on the throttle cable and go for a ride.
Of course I bet there will be some other adjustments to make but after that, and I'm happy with how it runs, not too rich and not too lean provided I have no vacuum leaks, I'll pull it and work on revision b tubes.

West if you could post some detailed closeups of the hose and clamps your using that would sure help. Those 2 offset bends are the hardest to get right.

 

[brianinpa]

That sure does look nice West!

 

[joedrum]

yes it dose

 

[westgl]

The whole Bottom of my VW Manifold, Including the Hose runners to, But Not including the OEM stub Manifolds, were Like a Freezer, and were Icy cold.

It runs better with these Manifold Heat & heated Air Intake updates or fixes

Tom the GM Engineer, At Langdons Stovebolt,

Stressed the importance of a Heated manifold, with this carb. the small Venturi chokes and the speed the air/fuel is traveling at will freeze the bottom of you Manifold and cause icing that will lead to drive-ability Problems that will act like the carb has issues, add heat, to the manifold and air intake the problems will all go away.

I did not experience any problems, or so I thought,
But!! The engine did run stronger after I added the heat, so it does work, and provides more power than i had before, Maybe more fuel economy too.

They are very easy fixes that are defiantly worth while

I have to think I solved any/all Icing Problems, and Drive-ability issues, with the temps i am experiencing currently 80-95 degrees, That's right, I was getting freezing at those high temperatures, think about 60-70 degrees it will be much worse, add in some humidity and that is a recipe for poor running.

I have been currently having 80-95 degrees and Dry weather, so not much humidity, thank goodness.

I have provided Two methods of adding heat to the VW Intake Manifold.

They Are;
1. Heater/Support Bracket, for the VW Manifold, This Bracket transfers Engine heat directly to the bottom of the VW manifold, Bracket attaches to the top of the engine, at the engine Lifting Hole Mount.
This Heater bracket wicks away the cold, and Provides Heat to the VW manifold

2. Air Intake Heat, This provides Instant Heat while riding, at the flip of a switch.
I removed the Radiator Heat shield between the radiator & engine, to get heated Air back to Air Intake/Air Filter, a single snorkel could be made.

This is the Heater/Support Bracket I would Really suggest doing this, as engine w/ single carb my not run quite right, No matter how much tuning you do, YOU will NOT be able to Tune it out icing /freezing,
Icing/freezing issues causes the Air/Fuel to freeze, and the Fuel to drop out of atomization and into larger Droplets of fuel.

It is because it Must have Manifold Heat.

Also Air Intake Heat.

I have Both, The Air Intake Heat is from the Radiator Heat I have a switch, hooked to my Radiator Fan, as a Backup for Carb. Heat.

If I am out on the road, carb starts to goive me a stumble do to Freezing/icing intake fuel.

Just flip the radiator fan switch, and the hot air from the radiator is sucked into the Air Intake, Problem solved.

Heater bracket was hot to the touch, and VW manifold was a Ambient temp Now.

Heater/Support Bracket

P1020039

• westgl
• Sep 17, 2013

Completed Heater/Support Bracket

Heater/Support Bracket Mounted to Engine Lift mount Hold, Look Just Behind Engine mount.

P1020040

• westgl
• Sep 17, 2013

Look just behind the engine mount in the foreground, you will see a shiny Bolt head...

Heater/Support Bracket, Other side Mounted to Center Bottom of VW manifold

P1020041

• westgl
• Sep 17, 2013

other side of the Heater/Support Bracket, Mounted Under VW manifold to Provide heat off of...

 

[westgl]

I have One tank of Gas through my GL11-S

Keep in mind, first tank, lots of full all out throttle action going on, going to over 100mph many times for power testing, and full throttle out of turns.

I also must say that this is in a very Rural area, No stop signs at all, all go,

I yielded 52mpg, only one tank of gas is not a set in stone mileage,
a 10gas tank average would be a much better idea of what this single carb. can do, one tank could have been a fluke.

Tom Also said, Since, I am not using the choke at all, (not using choke was a indicator to TOM that i was using more fuel than I needed and could be more fuel efficient) that it may be using slightly more fuel than is needed, (even though I have a Tan spark plug) so we could possibly get better fuel economy.

Tuning for Better Fuel Mileage

In talking to Tom the GM engineer.

He said we may be able to play with jets (all jets are externally accessed from the top of carb. No need to open carb)
and get better Gas mileage, I told him my plugs looked like a nice Tan tip he said, that only meant that I was in the Ball park, with the jets.

He said that the 32DFT carb. is so much more sophisticated than the OEM4 carb, having, separate, circuits, Like, Idle circuit, off idle circuit, and others.

Leave the Idle Circuit Alone it works great.

For better Fuel mileage we should start by changing the Off Idle jet, to a smaller one.

then change the Main jet to a smaller one

Way to do this is go to a smaller jet, at a time, then ride, no stumbling, or surging, then go to smaller jet, till while in that circuits range a stumble or surging is felt, then go back to the last size jet that did not stumble or surge.

The off idle circuit jet is done.

Then go to the Main jet, and do the same.

Quick note,
I have looked up the fuel Mileage that the 83' Escort got it was 45-50mpg, for a heavy car.

We have a lighter vehicle, sure it may be more of a high performance engine, but far less load

I would think higher mileage than what I have got is not out of the question.

I still have not even adjusted my Idle Mixture screw yet, Tom suggest that I do that, it is very easy to do,

Adjust it by turning it clock wise till engine RPM starts to drop off, then stop,

Then turn screw out or counter clockwise to achieve the highest RPM, if you went past the highest RPM, then simply start from the begining.

Note: Second gas tank

I will try my best to keep the carb. on the primary only, and try to keep to the posted speed limits.

to see what the GL11-S can do, lets hope that the "S" stands for Super Mileage

Note to the Note;
Running around on the primary Only is very easy to do with this carb. and provide the kind of power that is used/needed for 95% of day to day cruising and getting around, the secondary is the last 1/3 of the throttle and would be used for such things as,

1. Hot Rodding around town
2. Terrorizing Harley & Davidson
3. For Passing, dropping from 5th gear to 4th gear to get the engine in it's power band will provide all the passing power you need.
4. Getting on the freeway
5. Hauling A$$
6. Impressing your friends and or acquaintances, as that secondary Sounds really good, especially with the exhaust system i have.

brianinpa » Tue Sep 17, 2013 5:11 am[/url]":3cshvavu]
Ok, so for those that have had these on for a few tankful’s now, have you begun to look at gas mileage yet? Just wondering if it is improving with a single carb or not. My thought is that it should, but one never knows until it happens.

 

[brianinpa]

westgl » Tue Sep 17, 2013 10:22 am[/url]":ktpsywn2]
I have One tank of Gas through my GL11-S

Keep in mind, first tank, lots of full all out throttle action going on, going to over 100mph many times for power testing, and full throttle out of turns.

I also must say that this is in a very Rural area, No stop signs at all, all go,

I yielded 52mpg, only one tank of gas is not a set in stone mileage,
a 10gas tank average would be a much better idea of what this single carb. can do, one tank could have been a fluke.

brianinpa » Tue Sep 17, 2013 5:11 am[/url]":ktpsywn2]
Ok, so for those that have had these on for a few tankful’s now, have you begun to look at gas mileage yet? Just wondering if it is improving with a single carb or not. My thought is that it should, but one never knows until it happens.

:shock:

 

[westgl]

Right you are Joe,

Guy's I am working on Manifold Revision #2

If you are thinking of building my Manifold, and using the same parts i did.

WAIT!!!

My Silicone Hose runner is Rev.1, currently proven for over a week of riding, more than 350 miles tallied so far.

But!

I am working on Rev2. and Revising the Manifold runners, if it works out I will post a Rev.2, How To, with Pictures.

If not, then i will chalk it up to a failed attempt. Edison had many failed attempts, they will happen till success is achieved.

Please be Patient.

Rev.2 will be, better, and more durable, I want this to last, way out into the future, I have not had any problem with Rev.1, but felt it could be better.

Rev.2 may provide better efficiency and power, and possible more long term durability.

Rev.#2 may also be less expensive, as i think i can get some of the cost out of it, and be better all around.

I am going to keep it as No Welding required manifold runners

 

[badorderbob]

HAY West,..How do ya find the time to post on all the fourms,...are ya retired :smilie_happy: !! I just noticed in this post (which took me about 2hr.s to read :read: ) you think I may have trouble because of the manifold volume :shock: ?? I'd like to go over some of the things about my conversion,.... it's not a bad carb but surley could be better ,.....when using the Weber Holley 32/36, it's too wide for the frame fit and frame has to have a little chunk cut out ( I hated doing that). Then there was poor mileage 39 best I ever got and worst 29.5 averge 32-34 (too much WOT :smilie_happy: )and last but least even running at 60 I had to down shift for passing, if I didn't bogging down would take me into next week to get around. Idle is around 1000rpm but since I did a alt conversion it does better charging at 1150! Personally one needs a carb like ya have come across and Cap for sure has introduced to ya, where mods are few and what's great runs out of the box :clapping: and NO frame modification. :crying: Where I will put back the piece I cut out and make it whole again :rocks: !!! Are you sure you don't have your wife doing your posts :smilie_happy: :smilie_happy: ??? :hi: Bob

 

[westgl]

Hi Badorderbob,

Yea, I' am 51 years old, and decided I dont want to work any more, and that, the word "Work" was a dirty four letter word.
that i was not going to have any part of, so the wife and i retired.

Last Job I worked was 7 years ago, for NASA at JPL, Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Me and My wife both worked there, we helped build the Mars Rovers, my wife did most of the hands on wiring of those dudes.

That was a great job, did some really cool super high tech telescopes for scientific data, then military was going to get it 6 month later, you could see a person from space that looked like you standing right next to him.

In my working career I have had some really great jobs, A machine shop building precision machinery, as a Toyota Technician worked all Toyota's, built High Tech - Ultra High Speed 5+ million sq ft distribution centers for all the major companies.

Yes three very active threads keep me busy, Plus I am working on Rev.2

Today I got all of the summers rain in one day, it Poured down rain today.

I say good morning to the Wife, then off to it i go, the word "it" is a much better word than work.

About that manifold, My thought is the amount of air volume inside the manifold, that the engine has to pull to get the mixture to a fast charge speed rate to the piston is, as, well probably as big a volume as is our VW type IV manifolds, that may slightly slow down the charge speed, compared to a manifold that were smaller in air volume.

I could be totally wrong, and I probably am.

If it runs great, then Who cares, right.

Bob,

I look forward to your Ride report, i keep my fingers crossed that it is a very good report.

badorderbob » Tue Sep 17, 2013 9:54 am[/url]":1lccpw70]
HAY West,..How do ya find the time to post on all the fourms,...are ya retired :smilie_happy: !! I just noticed in this post (which took me about 2hr.s to read :read: ) you think I may have trouble because of the manifold volume :shock: ?? I'd like to go over some of the things about my conversion,.... it's not a bad carb but surley could be better ,.....when using the Weber Holley 32/36, it's too wide for the frame fit and frame has to have a little chunk cut out ( I hated doing that). Then there was poor mileage 39 best I ever got and worst 29.5 averge 32-34 (too much WOT :smilie_happy: )and last but least even running at 60 I had to down shift for passing, if I didn't bogging down would take me into next week to get around. Idle is around 1000rpm but since I did a alt conversion it does better charging at 1150! Personally one needs a carb like ya have come across and Cap for sure has introduced to ya, where mods are few and what's great runs out of the box :clapping: and NO frame modification. :crying: Where I will put back the piece I cut out and make it whole again :rocks: !!! Are you sure you don't have your wife doing your posts :smilie_happy: :smilie_happy: ??? :hi: Bob

 

[ekvh]

It has to be the speed of the charge with the smaller choke/venturi size. It might be that the carb atomizes the fuel better, but you'd think that this must be the difference as so many others have tried and failed to get rid of the lag time. The VW plenum shape probably aids here too. A lot of the other prototypes were pretty boxy in that department. I just plopped my money that I could have used for this mod for two needed Dyna's. I caint afford the C5. By next summer I should be able to try this. Hopefully, there will be more success stories and data to swing this.

 

[Steve83]

Hey West, I live about 3 blocks from JPL - I'll tell 'em hi for ya! :wave:

I'm really enjoying this thread, and anxiously awaiting the final outcome - if there will ever be one! There's always room for improvement, with anything... :good:

 

[westgl]

Thanks Steve,

I like the Pasadena area, My sister-in-law still works at JPL.

Steve83 » Tue Sep 17, 2013 11:48 am[/url]":27di1if0]
Hey West, I live about 3 blocks from JPL - I'll tell 'em hi for ya! :wave:

I'm really enjoying this thread, and anxiously awaiting the final outcome - if there will ever be one! There's always room for improvement, with anything... :good:

 

[westgl]

Rev.#2

I have the hardest tube done.

Took me two tries, and about 10 minutes to make the worst tube, but it took an hour to get stuff and a half hour to think it all through.

I do not have it installed, that is for a different day.

I laid Rev.#2 over the rev.#1, and the shape is the same.

For the people that have no idea what I am talking about.

What makes the worst tube so difficult?

Actually 2 tubes are not real easy, But 1 of them is the Worst

Reason that tube is tough, is the tube must take "S" shaped curves, that are very tight switchbacks.

That shape is tough, Just trying to make those curves, plus trying to keep the hose from Kinking, or collapsing.

Rev.#2 is looking promising.

But wont be able to tell, till it is mounted, and running, and free of Vacuum leaks.

 

[82a]

westgl » Tue Sep 17, 2013 9:17 am[/url]":20qj4m8z]

P1020046

• westgl
• Sep 17, 2013

Shot of All Clamp Adjusters turned Down to hide them and provide a cleaner look

forgot to turn off the fuel again ... :whistling: :wave:

 

[westgl]

What, who Me.

No!, I don't turn my gas tanks fuel valve off any more, dont need to, that was before, this is Now.

By the way today I checked my engine and carb for fuel leaks, No leaks at all since rev.1, single carb. was installed.

I WILL NOT turn my gas tanks fuel valve to off ever again, or till I have a leak, i will post that if it happens, or for a reason un-associated to a fuel leak, like a maintenance reason.

 

[westgl]

Cold start today for Rev.1

Temp out side is right at 40 degrees.

I received my 7volt regulator, installed it first thing,
Also i have a Geo Metro thermostat/Radiator Fan switch installed.

4 pumps, then hit the Start Button, "CLICK" said the starter solenoid, tried it 10 more times, lots of "Clicks" No start.

This has happened to me before on Cold days, I think i have a pos. start cable that is marginal, I will also replace the ground cable, I cleaned all connections, removed corrosion off of all cable ends and made sure the ground was good.

Any way i will need to get that taken care of.

Jumped direct to starter.

Started up, had to rev a little more than on a warmer day, to keep it running, maybe 10-12 revs.

also held at 2k rpms for maybe 1 minute, then let it idle, Idle was good.

Engine temp came up within 5 minutes to Low operating temp, end of thin band on temp gauge, just before thicker band starts.

After 10-15 minutes more rad fan came on like it was suppose to, and off when it was suppose to.

With the 7volt reg replaced true temp is actually showing, after 10minutes both gauges would have pegged.

Since this was the coolest day yet 40 degrees.

I wanted to check a few temps with the laser thermometer, these are $10.00-$15.00 at Harbor freight, on sale $10.00.

With Engine up to operating temp.
Took temps of;
Bottom of VW manifold, 55-60 degrees felt icy and moist, on the bottom of the VW mani. this was right after hitting low operating temp
10 more minutes into running
Heater Bracket, 150 degrees,
Bottom of VW Heater bracket was 113 degrees temp was climbing
another 10-20minutes later
Radiator fan started cycling, on & off,
When the radiator fan starts cycling on it provides Heated air for the air intake, this also helps keep the Carb. & VW manifold from icing.

Note:
I removed the Radiator Heat Shield between the radiator and carb. on those Hot days i thought i was going to Roast with that heat shield removed, But I could not feel any added heat at all.

Heater bracket still at 150', this heat is coming straight from the Engine Block, and is transferred by the Heater bracket directly to the bottom of the VW manifold, I used Anti-sieze as a Thermal Heat Compound to help transfer heat between the two surfaces of metal, Anti-sieze has been used by Cheap Computer guys in transferring heat in computer components.
Bottom of manifold was 122 degrees success.

How much heat is enough, to do a adequate job, of getting rid of fuel icing issues? That is a good question.

So far I have not experienced any issues even at 40 degrees.

I did not flip my radiator fan switch to on today, as i wanted to see if normal radiator cycling would be enough.

Note:
I have the Geo Metro Radiator Fan Switch, it is known to come on a little bit earlier, and more often, than the OEM switch does, as the temp is slightly lower, and the off temp is a shallow, so range is a little less, but works well.

A OEM stock rad fan switch, may come on a little higher temp, and may stay on a little longer.

Reason I bring this up is due to the Heat provided for the heated Air Intake, and the timing for that provision of heat, when it is cold out.

 

[joedrum]

having the heat shield off for yrs and thermostrat too ...to me it was always more comfortable and the motor like it ....but the thermostat out might not be good on single carb

 

[westgl]

I used a Napa Thermostat

Napa #101

I drill 6ea 1/8" holes in the thermostat, this lets coolant flow through, so it self burps, and the air in the cooling system works it way out by the next morning.

4ea holes at top, & 2 ea at bottom of thermostat.

Yea i dont notice any heat from the engine even when the Rad. fan is on

 

[joedrum]

I beleave consistency means a lot ....