Still having trouble with #1 plug fouling

[jdegase]

Kirk,
I'v been reading your thread bud. and I'm still not sure if you,ve checked these carbs with a vacume gauge?
finding the blocked passages, and checking the floats were excellent stratagy. but as these are vacume operated carbs they can foul a plug if they are out of synch.

not sure if you have a gauge set, so I'll offer mine again.
I can tell you from experiance they are VERY touchy to synch, but (like in dans awsome video) when you got them all even the wing sounds totally differnt.

I'm also wondering if all the highspeed jets are the same size?? or if #1 might be differnt or even maybe it was "cleaned" with a tip cleaner and opened up some....

when you swapped parts did you swap main jet? you said you didnt swap slides, so maybe its that pin?

ok enough of my .02

keep up the good fight bro.
its totally worth it!


P.S. bikebandit claims to have the oem needle ans seat sets for around 42$

 

[kirkwilson]

Thanks, Jim-

I swapped everything from #1 to #2 carbs- almost- swapped needle jets, needle jet holders, main jets, needles, floats, float pins, float valves, float seats, (air bypass diaphrams and springs from #1 to #4 because that meant I didn't have to split the carbs). Did not swap the pistons because manual says not to they are matched to the carb body and the first time I took these carbs apart everything got marked with a Sharpie so I know they went back where they came from. Did not swap the aluminum piston covers but made sure the little air hole in the inside was clear on all of them. I did not swap the pilot needle assy's- I took them out and made sure the little o-ring, washer, spring were in properly and adjusted all 4 to fact spec 1- 1/4th turn out. But they went back into their original carb.

I really thought I had it this time... These were rebuilt by Pistol Pete last fall and the bike wasn't run on the road after they were re-installed. All the rubber looks new and the metal inside is real clean even though I did find a couple air passages clogged probably from sitting after the rebuild- I asked the PO how old the gas was and all he could tell me was 'old' so it could have been 20 yrs old- when we first started the bike the gas smelled like laquer so the first thing I did was drain the tank, put new gas in, and change the gas filter.

If the problem was the main jets it should have moved over to #2 so there is either something wrong with the pilot jet or the carb body- IMHO....Pistol Pete emailed me that out of sync wouldn't cause fouling- I've got a set of gauges on order anyway- thanks for the offer!

 

[kirkwilson]

joedrum and dan-

Joe I swappped all the ignition stuff coils, wires, the little grey ignition things right in front of the rectifier, side-to side so everything that was running 2 and 4 is now running 1 and 3- no difference so I don't think it's spark.

Dan it does seem like it's getting better I was able to ride 35 miles tonite without missing- when I got home and parked her I hit the throttle and she screamed-sounded great no missing- so it is better but when I pulled the plugs 2,3,4 had white insulators- and they were in there for several rides- #1 was black again and it was brand new-

Hey look at the bright side- I'm just using this bike to putt around on after or before I go to work- a gallon or so of gas- $3- new #1 plug- $3 or so- so the plugs will only cost me about the same as the gas....

 

[joedrum]

use aft kirk it just may need to clean itself up some from yrs of not being right ....just give it a chance ......even though it was a new plug there could be all kinds of deposits in the cumbustion chaimbers that just needs to run clean with more miles put on it....that ignition switch dosnt mean that the spark isnt weak ....it could be weak enough to effect no.1 cylinder as it might be a little different than the other clylinders as in compression ,valve condition that has nothing to do with carbs ......but give the atf a chance to do its thing by just riding .....

 

[kirkwilson]

Hey Joe,

Thanks again for your help- I have to tell you- I can't believe how helpful everybody on this forum has been-

Compression on #1 was 165- #2- 170, #3 & 4- 160- so that's great news- engine is sound. Even if my spark is weak all the other cylinders like it just fine so there is something going on with #1.

Been running the atf like you said 8 oz/ tank.

This weekend carbs come back off ( I'm getting pretty good at this- last time it only took me 15 minutes to get the throttle cables back on and adjusted- that's the hardest part of the whole thing). I'm switching the float bowls between #1 and #4, switching the piston springs, cleaning everything again, checking all the air passages again.

There has to be a reason #1 is running so rich and I AM going to find it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Does anybody know the torque for the intake runners- to- head bolts? There is a rubber o-ring in there I know but whenever I ratchet down steel bolts into aluminum threads I kind of cringe- I've got a horror story about a Saab head from years ago....

Anybody have a motor that's running good want to send me their #1 carb so I can compare it to mine? I love you guys !!!!!!!

 

[dan filipi]

Anybody have a motor that's running good want to send me their #1 carb so I can compare it to mine?

I'm about ready to pack up my #1 carb and send it off to you to sort this out!!!

There has got to be a reason for the fouling. I've been picking my brain the last couple days.

I don't see how it can be spark because you swapped coils and wires.

To my surprise, my number 4 plug was black before doing a idle drop and sync, I went for a short ride and it's clean!

Try this.
With the engine warm, use a spray bottle and spray water on the exhaust pipe, the actual pipe at the head not the chrome shield.
Spray each one and compare how the water vaporizes.
If #1 is actually running rich it will be cooler.
I found the problem with my number 2 carb this way and used it as a tuning tool.

 

[kirkwilson]

Sounds good- I'll be checking the mail every day for a carb-shaped box....

 

[joedrum]

yeah kirk those o rings seal good without a lot of torque and you can get in big trouble there if the bolt gets stuck in the head ....i dont know what torque is but less is good on something thats going on and off ....it probably is the carb the slide spring could be weak ...on my 1000 its always no.4 carb that rears its ugly head on me ....if your in it big time with carbs off again just clear your head and go though everything again use tin foil to clean slide walls ....it may be somthing that was done to that carb by someone else that has made it different than the others so look for any difference closely as compaired to the others....

the reason that makes the motors so good and long lasting is the same reason that makes the carbs so difficult sitting o top of the motor and and not in the ideal place with gravity trying to run everything down into the motor ....but im sure your going to get this worked out kirk ....ive got several carb racks i have to work on and im not sure im going to have any better time of it than you are .... ihave two 1100 carb racks an 80 and 83 the 80 is completly stuck and the 83 are almost stuck ....but the ones i have to work on are 1000 carb racks im going to use on 1200 projects ive got going on ......

 

[kirkwilson]

Carbs are back out ( I'm getting real good at it now).

Theoretical question-

What if the tiny o-ring and tiny washer on my pilot jet were reversed? Washer in first, o-ring in next, then spring. Could this cause the carb to run rich?

 

[joedrum]

hmm .....its bond to do somthing :?: :shock: :? :mrgreen:

 

[kirkwilson]

Again thanks everyone- I'm really stubborn but I'm about to give up on this carb- every removeable part has been exchanged with one of the other carbs and work fine. Bought vac gauges and carbs sync'd fine. Only things that haven't been switched are the pistons and piston covers- I'll try switching them in case they've gotten mismatched even though everything says not to switch them (not by me I Sharpie'd everything). Otherwise I'm on to another carb-

 

[Winger 82]

:cool!: Sounds like you can do this with your eyes closed by now, hope ya get it figured out sounds like you might be real close.
Winger 82 :hi:

 

[kirkwilson]

It's like one of those relationship things- it's to the point of getting fixed- or something has to change....

 

[dan filipi]

Dangit Kirk, sorry but I'm all out of ideas. Maybe there IS a casting problem?

 

[joedrum]

okay i know i keep harping on this but lets assume the carb is not it ....the spark is the only thing left that would cause this

it is true that it could be something wrong with a non moving part of the carb or carb body but this seems unlikely but i have herd from others that this can happen....at this point if you feel its still the carb i would turn the mixture screw in all the way ....its seems that that would have to lean it out ....maybe the seat there is wore out from someone tightening this way to hard or something before setting at 1 1/2 turns or whatever its spose to set at .....i have not much time 1100 crarbs practicly none but on 1000 carbs i had this same thing going on .....this was a long time ago and my memory sucks but it seems on that carb i ended up with the mixture screw set at 1/2 turn or somthing before i could get it to lean out while the other carbs were set at a lot more i cant remember what the stock setting is right now ithink its like 2 1/2 turns or what ever but then no.4 carb was set almost close for it to work right .....and thats the way it was for a long time and it ran pretty good and did not foul plugs....but when i change the ignition later maybe a year or so that all changed .....seems the spark was so different that all the setting changed some and no.4 carb started acting more like the other .....it was so different that it only took a minute or two for me to relize that the carb i could not hardly get to run lean went lean instancely .....so if im remembering right thats the way it went for me ......and i must say that the ignition change was the thing that made the lasting fix ....since then which was yrs ago i hardly ever messed withit since ......so to me it ive always thought it had more to do with the ignition than carbs and the ignition always checked out good ...i did all the things you have done and kep ruling out the ignition but after yrs of missing with it the ignition was the cure all factor on my 1000.....i know the 1100 ignition is so much different than the 1000 and i dont know if any of this applyes but thats the way it went for me ..... :mrgreen:

 

[dan filipi]

I had a problem with the number 2 carb similar to what Joe talks about.

This carb took quite a bit of extra work to clean it out.

Before I found it had a bad needle and seat it ran very rich, so rich it would flood out during acceleration.
Even THAT rich it never fouled a plug.
I had reset and triple checked the floats each of the 3-4 times I had the carbs out but it wasn't until I filled the bowls and carefully measured how much gas was ACTUALLY IN the bowls did I find #2 was overfilling.

I figured out what was happening, the non Honda needle and seat needs more pressure for it to seat and close.
What I did rather than get a Honda seat was cheat on the float height. I think I lowered in about 2 MM. That was enough to stop the flooding, 2 MM is all it takes to flood a cylinder.

Now this last time setting the idle mixture screws, all plugs are burning clean.

 

[kirkwilson]

Dan,

I tried to measure how much fuel was in each float bowl last time I had them out- was real careful not to tip the carb rack, set it on my Workmate so I could drain all the bowls, drained #1 into a plastic Dixie cup, put it on my front steps, drained #2 into a plastic dixie cup, carried it out of the garage and set it next to #1- just in time to see #1's dixie cup melt/ dissolve and empty gas all over my front steps!!!! All I could do was laugh!!!! While I was laughing #2 dixie cup let loose- Working on these carbs is almost as much fun as banging myself in the head with a hammer- almost- Oh, and did I mention that when I was putting them back in I got stung on the back of my hand by a scorpion? The fun just goes on and on!

Kirk

 

[dan filipi]

I never been bit by one of them, does it hurt? I thought they were lethal, or is that a myth?

How are you getting the gas into the cups, should be using the bowl drain screws.

I found out the same way about dixie cups :smilie_happy:

 

[kirkwilson]

The sting felt like somebody stuck a thumbtack in the back of my hand- it didn't swell up right away but within about 30 minutes my vision got kind of blurry and stayed that way until the next day- when I woke up the next day I had a yellowish lump on the back of my hand almost exactly the size of a golf ball cut in half- and the same shape- almost perfectly round- then it grew until my whole hand was big, puffy, and yellow. Surprisingly it didn't hurt that much. We don't have many scorpions around here but we make up for it in brown recluse and black widows.

Yeah I set the carb rack on my Workmate being real careful to keep it level- so that I could get to all 4 bowl drain screws- only used the ones on #1 &2 though...

I figured I'd just drain the gas into 4 cups then compare the levels. I guess I could just use a glass one and mark each level with a Sharpie, then empty out the gas, and drain the next bowl- because the actual amount isn't important-right? Just the relative amounts in each bowl?

 

[dan filipi]

because the actual amount isn't important-right? Just the relative amounts in each bowl?

Right.