Time for me to address the 800lb Gorilla in the room.(Engine knock thread) REVIVED!

[dan filipi]

I hooked up the points and have some interesting results.

But first! a little vid.

I love mechanical stuff.

Poetry in motion:

(The points open and close smooth, the jerky must be caused by digital video compression)
[flv]https://classicgoldwings.com/forum/vids/PointsPoetry.flv[/flv]

Ok,
This is the first start after hook up of the points:

[flv]https://classicgoldwings.com/forum/vids/FrstStartOn1000Points.flv[/flv]

It started very good even cold.
There was some popping out the left exhaust.
Right sounded good.

This next vid is fully warmed up.
After adjusting the points the exhaust popping quit.

The knock is very easy to hear now.
I'm goosing the throttle repeatedly in this vid which makes the knock easy to hear now.
I don't think it did this when running on the electronic ignition:

[flv]https://classicgoldwings.com/forum/vids/LouderKnockRunningPoints.flv[/flv]

It's interesting the knock is louder running points.
Changing timing didn't make any difference.
I'm going to put it back on the electronics and see if I can duplicate the knock under the same conditions.

 

[joedrum]

i know your bike knocking still but it sounds good ....did you have to put spacers with the ignition housing .....or is the head a 1000 :mrgreen: the garage is getting kind of trashy :hihihi: :mrgreen: cant wait for the ride report.... :mrgreen:

 

[dan filipi]

Getting trashy?? lol It's way overdue for a "take everything out and reorganize" weekend.

No spacers. It bolted right on but the recess is different in the head.
On the 1000 it's machined flat and square, 1100 is beveled.
For that reason the points might not be running square on the cam, not sure. Close enough for this test.

 

[mcgovern61]

I have been mulling over in my head all of the discussions and think about the knocking I have in the '81 engine and I have looked at You Tube videos of engines with piston slap, rod knocks and such and one thing common in all of the videos is that their noise is there all of the time and gets worse with increased RPM. My noise is not there all of the time, only when I ereach certain RPM, it sounds like a soft metal sound (muffled if you will?). The only soft metal in the engine is aluminum and it is not getting hit anywhere inside the block and heads that I can think of. My sound is definately around the rocker arms (or just a tad deeper behind the valve covers).

With the '81 cam out of the right side, I can see some wear and scoring on both the cam lobes and rockers. I can also see indentations before and after TDC on the cam lobes (same thing on the '82 cams.) So I decided to check exactly how the cam lobes turn on the rockers and to my surprise, just turning by hand with no spring pressure, the lobes catch the rockers and do not slide all of the time. I put the cam and rocker assembly back on the head to see how it turned with the spring pressure on them (fully backed out and unadjusted). Again, I can feel that they do not slide as smoothy as I would have expected BUT.......I also found out that the springs do not have the same amount of tension!

Turning the cam by the pulley only (with a 1/4" ratchet and 12mm socket) #1 intake and #3 exhaust always open at the same time (and a lot of pressure to open them) #1 exhaust alone takes a bit to open. #3 intake opens with very little effort at all! Tried this several times and consistently #3 intake opens with almost no effort. Unfortunately, the '82 valves are rusted into the head so I cannot test them and the '83 is running like a clock and I am afraid to change anything! :smilie_happy:

I am not drawing conclusions yet, just throwing this out there for consideration.

 

[dan filipi]

I've noticed the rockers do seem to sort of get hung up on the cam and not smooth but didn't pay much attention to it, will now.

 

[mcgovern61]

If I get a chance, I am going to pull the heads on the '81 and check to see what the pistons are doing. Should be able to check for excessive bearing play pretty easy with the heads off. I do not have a micrometer to check the skirts, but I should be able to see if they are sliding around or scoring up the cylinder walls. I am not running this engine in anything so losing a few head gaskets is not too much concern. I am hoping to have enough evidence of what could cause this knock without splitting the case.

 

[dan filipi]

That'd be great if you do that Gerry so we can compare notes.

When I opened this one up I did see scratches on the skirts but nothing relative on the cylinder walls.
I also have a complete open case on the floor for comparison.

 

[dan filipi]

I tried on a loose head what you did Gerry except I left the adjusters where they were.
Very hard to turn past when both valves open but easier when opening just one. Both of them felt about the same.
Tomorrow I'll try it with the adjusters backed off.

I measured some springs.
Outers were within stock measurement, both inners were at the serviceable minimum. Tells me these springs are done.

 

[joedrum]

it seems to me that motors that have set for yes are going to have some bad springs ...from just sitting forever compressed ....this is the worst condition for storing a spring for yrs....

its come to me that in a 1100 ....that you put 75-77 cams in the valves are close to hitting and thesprings need to be addressed ......

like on your bike dan ...if the springs are making a lot of noise ...that only indicates they are flying off the cam further to get that loud.....

new springs would be great but we need info on here that can fix this condition with the springs we have so others can bring there valve tranes up to par ...

i think shims added to the old springs fixes this condition and adds thousand thousands of miles to these bikes and then some ...

if we can sorce some springs that would be good to .....theres a spring out there made for something that can be commonly bought im sure

:mrgreen:

 

[slabghost]

Hey Joe do you have any loose valve springs you can measure for size? I'm sure there are other springs out there that can be used.

 

[joedrum]

yea i will check them later today and post back vince .....after messing with the 1200 i can see how close things are ...with 8 degrees more duration in 75-77cams its close and valve trane has to be brought up to par ....just cant have no valve flying over the top of the cam or bouncing off the top of the cam....it will hit maybe for sure more likely...so im pushing to make sure we come up with some kind of good answer to this problem ....that will make this thread a huge benifit to all

its an obvious weak spot were into in this thread ....no wonder wings have valve seal problems and burning oil with this kind of trauma going on :mrgreen:

 

[dan filipi]

Test ride done.
BIG grin on my face!

Yes these are hot cams without a doubt.
No problem breaking the tire loose on a wet road.

It rides and runs like it's a different engine.
These cams simply love running at 4-6 grand and no hesitation going up past 8k.

The "buzz" in the bars are almost gone, major plus factor there!

That is it's raining here which in all fairness isn't a good test run for me to compare how it was since most of my riding time is dry in the 70's and 80's and engine temp never got above beginning of fat bar on this run.

It does seem to be lacking some lower rpm torque.
One freeway run up hill into Simi Valley it was stuggling more than before. Same speed and rpm (35-3800 at 70), I was definately giving it more throttle to maintain speed.

One thing interesting on HARD (aka racing) acceleration from a stop up thru just 2 gears I notice it didn't seem like I had to get the rpms as high as before between shifts and I was at 70mph.
I'm sure with 81 gears this thing could easily keep up with an 1800 from a stop.

Nice cams indeed.
I'm looking forward to testing the 1200 cams.
They will decide what cut I'm going to have cams done.

Oh, knock is still there. Might be louder but again hard to tell because the engine temp was so low.

 

[mcgovern61]

I am pretty busy with holiday stuff and delivering a ferry boat this week and then we are heading out to see my daughter and the grandchildren in Ohio over Christmas so I am not going to have time to do anything else.

My next step though is to measure the torque needed to compress the springs on the '81. Both heads are on the engine. I am going to back off the rocker adjustments and remove the other timing belt. Then I will use my torque wrench to measure how much torque it takes to overcome the cam passing TDC and compressing the springs. I know it will be greater when two springs are compressed at the same time, but I am more interested in testing the other individual springs to check them.

 

[thewhiterhino]

Test ride done.
BIG grin on my face!

Yes these are hot cams without a doubt.
No problem breaking the tire loose on a wet road.

It rides and runs like it's a different engine.
These cams simply love running at 4-6 grand and no hesitation going up past 8k.

The "buzz" in the bars are almost gone, major plus factor there!

That is it's raining here which in all fairness isn't a good test run for me to compare how it was since most of my riding time is dry in the 70's and 80's and engine temp never got above beginning of fat bar on this run.

It does seem to be lacking some lower rpm torque.
One freeway run up hill into Simi Valley it was stuggling more than before. Same speed and rpm (35-3800 at 70), I was definately giving it more throttle to maintain speed.

One thing interesting on HARD (aka racing) acceleration from a stop up thru just 2 gears I notice it didn't seem like I had to get the rpms as high as before between shifts and I was at 70mph.
I'm sure with 81 gears this thing could easily keep up with an 1800 from a stop.

Nice cams indeed.
I'm looking forward to testing the 1200 cams.
They will decide what cut I'm going to have cams done.

Oh, knock is still there. Might be louder but again hard to tell because the engine temp was so low.

I've lost track, which cams are these, and what year?
:headscratch: :ahem: :headscratch:

 

[dan filipi]

Ross, these cams are the GL1000 75-77.

That sounds good Gerry.
An inch pound torque wrench should be even more accurate.

 

[joedrum]

great to here dan ....it seems these motors like this cam grind .....i think the 1100s like it better than the 1000s ....i think the 1000s struggle a bit more down low in the rpm and struggle longer in the low range than the 1100 dose.....

with your springs and such right now .....i think you ran it to hard ...stay out of the higher rpm please....

you have to know that with the higher lift and for sure the longer duration the clearences are closer now and floating over the top of these cams could mean hitting the piston maybe....just keep the rpm down till we can figure out spring rehab :mrgreen:

 

[dan filipi]

...just keep the rpm down till we can figure out spring rehab :mrgreen:

I'll try but no guarantees, it's too much fun.

 

[dan filipi]

Joe, I'm not understanding why what I have set up would be any more risky bumping a valve than these cams in a 1000 head.
Far as I can tell the 1000 and 1100's use the same valve, diameter at least.
Unless the rocker travel has changed but I don't see how that could be because I'm running the same rockers and cam holders.

According to Clymer, the lift is the same on both the 1100 and 1000. It's duration that's different.

What am I missing?

 

[joedrum]

to the best of my kowledge the 1000 cams are 3mm more lift...so they are down further...and the duration is longer ...this is the biggest issue 8 degrees....

meaning that the piston travels into closer relation to the valve...because of duration of valve grind and stoke of the piston as in higth to the top ...ihope you understand that i cant hardly and i wrote it.... :headscratch: :mrgreen:

 

[dan filipi]

I gotta wonder where your getting that information from Joe.

The 80-83 Honda service manual says 1100 all years is 37mm intake, 36.8 exhaust.

Clymer says 75-77 37.07 intake, 37.07 exhaust.
75-77 Shop manual says 75-77 is 37.23mm Intake, 36.88 exhaust.

Clymer is probably wrong as usual so I'd go with the shop manual.

I measured the 1000 cam before I put it in and it was right there with the 75-77 shop manual.
Duration I agree, that's easy to tell by looking down the center of both. Clymer backs that up.

Are there other 1000 cams out there 3 mm more lift? That's a lot?