Time for me to address the 800lb Gorilla in the room.(Engine knock thread) REVIVED!

[joedrum]

after reading our morning posts im thinking your leaning towards the 1000 cams ....and your right ...right now all ignition options are open to me that in itself is a huge upgrade to have .....im still leary about what kind of shape your motor is in .....but if your like me and would want to do this for the power gains i was looking for and that plays big in your decission go for it ....even if the motor is bad it wont hurt any of the work involved in the cam change and heads work .....but before id spend money on the cams at the machine shop id spend it on new springs and shims to account for wear.....and then if you have the money to have the cams done then do it .....with the 1000 cams it seems manditory after all the trauma we have become aware of in these heads from rough cams and wornout and hammer springs i cant justify not doing something here ....its not logical to use even more aggressive cam when they cant handle the ones they have already ....i cant say it enough cause i know these things without springs this is a rescipe for desaster .....nummber one thing SPRINGS SPRINGS SPRINGS SPRINGS ...im not rumping my bike anymore till i address the SPRINGS ISSUE in someway....if i cant afford springs or cant find anything.... shims for sure i can do this out of thin air .....but new springs bump up a tad over specs seems the best path.....show me where i can buy springs this is someting to look into just to see if its availible ....ive been trying but im not having any luck .....you could probably do this better than me we all have our pluses this is not one of mine at all in fact im laughable. :smilie_happy: :smilie_happy: :rant: :rant: :doh: :mrgreen:

one other thing if the noise in your bike is in the cams and heads its obvious that the loudest noise in your bike is from a 1000 cams not a strong case for leaving the springs alone dan....more reason to solve the spring issue :mrgreen:

 

[dan filipi]

I agree with new springs. Would be stupid to have cams ground and not address the underlying cause for the condition the cams are in.
My plan is to put the 1200 cams and see how it runs with no other changes.
This will help me make the final decision whether to go with cams ground to 1000 specs, stay with 1100 spec cams, or run 1200 cams. I might like the 1200's more but right now I have to figure out the whole lift/duration thing and what effects they have.
Throwing the cams in will give me real world results I can feel.

Here's a link to cheapcycleparts.com
It says the springs are available but I would give them a call to make sure.
https://cheapcycleparts.com/model_years/ ... blies/4133

If you want a tad stronger spring I think it would be better time and money spent to visit a head shop and see what they can offer. The real shops have the right tools to measure and test and knowledge like we know the back of our hand what would fit and what effects there would be. As a group here we know a lot but there comes a time when we gotta consult the guys that do this stuff every day.

 

[joedrum]

they didnt have one part at all :smilie_happy: :smilie_happy: :fiddle: :fiddle: :fiddle: :rant: :rant: :rant: :mrgreen:

 

[mcgovern61]

If you want a tad stronger spring I think it would be better time and money spent to visit a head shop and see what they can offer. The real shops have the right tools to measure and test and knowledge like we know the back of our hand what would fit and what effects there would be. As a group here we know a lot but there comes a time when we gotta consult the guys that do this stuff every day.

I agree with that!

The other thing I would keep in mind, there are many 1100's running around quiet as a mouse with no engine noise other than normal sounds with very high mileage on them that have not had their cams looked at. The two engines I have cams to view had 23k miles on one and over 169k miles on the other and they are both showing similar wear even with the mileage differences.

 

[dan filipi]

Good point there Gerry.

That is exactly why I'm swapping stuff on a very tight budget as a trial and error to see what effects it has.

I have a suspicion the knock I'm hearing is rod, especially after what I heard on a cold start yesterday.
The knock was similar but much louder than what I hear when it's warmed up.

I think ultimately I'll be splitting this case to find the noise.
Without the right tools I'll probably have to drop it at the head shop for them to measure it up.

I also have a 83 engine in the parts bike. I want to get that into running condition but first I have to clean up/out the garage for more room. It seemed to have good oil pressure and compression but we all know now that doesn't mean much.

It's sure nice I'm in a climate I can do this stuff year round!

 

[dan filipi]

The 1200 cams have shipped! :yahoo:

 

[dan filipi]

If you want a tad stronger spring I think it would be better time and money spent to visit a head shop and see what they can offer. The real shops have the right tools to measure and test and knowledge like we know the back of our hand what would fit and what effects there would be. As a group here we know a lot but there comes a time when we gotta consult the guys that do this stuff every day.

I agree with that!

The other thing I would keep in mind, there are many 1100's running around quiet as a mouse with no engine noise other than normal sounds with very high mileage on them that have not had their cams looked at. The two engines I have cams to view had 23k miles on one and over 169k miles on the other and they are both showing similar wear even with the mileage differences.

Thinking more about this it occurred to me other things we should keep in mind.
There are many variables we don't know about the history of an engine.

- was it broken in properly.
- were oil and filter changes done often enough.
- was it ever overheated.
- was it riden hard and put away wet (redline racing etc.)
- Did the oil pickup screen get cleaned like it should to keep oil delivery up.
- Were valve adjustments done when they should be and done properly.
- Are the miles highway miles or stop and go traffic miles
- Has the speedo turned over and 26k is actually 100 and 26k.

These are reasons a used engine is such a crap shoot.

 

[mcgovern61]

It's sure nice I'm in a climate I can do this stuff year round!

Now that hurts!!! :whip: :smilie_happy: (As we are experiencing 23 degree average temps around here with wind chills below 10 degrees!)

 

[dan filipi]

It's sure nice I'm in a climate I can do this stuff year round!

Now that hurts!!! :whip: :smilie_happy: (As we are experiencing 23 degree average temps around here with wind chills below 10 degrees!)

Sorry but I just couldn't resist sticking that in there :hihihi:

Oh I forgot the ever popular variable-

" IT RAN GOOD BEFORE IT WAS PARKED (9 YEARS AGO)!"

 

[mcgovern61]

Oh I forgot the ever popular variable-

" IT RAN GOOD BEFORE IT WAS PARKED (9 YEARS AGO)!"

That is what the PO told me about my '82 when he gave it to me! (Except it sat outside for 12 years). He said he thought it ran good before he parked it. (I think the broken piston tells a different story!)

#4 piston rod

• mcgovern61
• Jan 10, 2010

We are still friends, and he did not make any promises that it would work.

 

[dan filipi]

Oh another one,

-what work has been done to the engine?
Heads, cams, valves, bearings? A whole new list of variables it makes my head heart.

 

[dan filipi]

I went ahead and threw the early 1000 cam in the left side since it's a 1000 cam on the right :doh:
These are both 75-77 cams.

https://classicgoldwings.com/forum/vids/ ... 000Cam.flv

To hopefully eliminate possibilities as to the cause of this knock nothing else was changed, only the cam, so same rockers and holder.

Right away the valve clatter is almost unnoticeable in comparison to the 1200 cam.
Idle sound is a bit different, a bit more "poppy" like you can hear the bangs more.
Acceleration is definitely quicker with little lag even when cold.

Checked the sync and they're dead on as they were with the 1100 cam. Dang, forgot to check sync with the 1200 cam.
I'll do that when the 1200 cams arrive, put the left one in first and check sync.

I can CLEARLY hear the knock now on the left side as well as the right which was clearly not there with the 1200 cam in the left side.

Gotta think on this a bit what to try next, any ideas?

I could hook up the points ignition and mess with the timing, see what effects that has to the knock.

 

[joedrum]

dan its obvious that the motor runs better.....if you would have taken the time to clean up those cams a lot of the new noise would probably lessen or go away ...its not like you cant take them to the machine shop after messing with them by hand .....put the 1000 ignition cover on ....if its a 1100 head the ignition cover wont fit all the way down just put a washer there to space it out and tighten ....to protect the cam end ...

its obvious you have some internal motor noise but you have balanced it out now .....your motor was under tremindest stress not unlike timing belt off one tooth might be just about the same.....

i would zip it up as it is right now and test it ....theres no reason not to .....just dont be real hard on it ....you sould be able to see how sweet the cam grind is .....its going to be night and day difference....

you will proably come home and take those cams out true them up ...get them looking good and reinstalled and be done with it ...with a smile on your face im convinced of it ....just from hearing it run on video.... k: :music: :good: :rocks: :clapping: :mrgreen:

 

[mcgovern61]

Right side knock seems louder and it mirrors the sound my '81 makes. When I first noticed my knock, it sounds like something tapping the valve cover...kinda soft metal sounding, but rapid. From my perspective, I have tried to narrow down what could possibly make that kind of soft knock (it isn't too far from a soft tapping). BTW..I am saying soft knock as in soft metal sound as opposed to an obvious clanging or banging of metal sound.

 

[mcgovern61]

This is way out there but...... is it possible to have a post ignition knock rather than a pre-ignition ping? I have used 93 octane gas to see if it made any difference if it was from pinging and it made no difference. But if it is post ignition firing (unburned gas igniting after the power stroke?) it may not detonate the same as pre-ignition and cause detonation scars on the plugs like pre-ignition? If you listen to the knock on your right side,the knocking is slightly behind the increase in RPM as you twist the throttle. (I know...I am really reaching for straws here!!! :smilie_happy: )

 

[dan filipi]

Joe, I understand about what your saying about hand grinding them but that would take the hardened surface down or away.
As it is a few of these cams show flaking of that hardened layer as does at least one lobe of this 1000 cam.

I could do it by hand but what I'm after is a reliable top end with the running characteristics that I like.
Once I find that combination I'll have the cams ground and hardened to that spec.
I can't see how taking that hardened surface away could produce reliable long term results without including the hardening process. I think the results would be very short lived.

Gerry, what you say about knock makes me more anxious to pull the seat and false tank to hook up the 1k ignition.

The way I see it is all possibilities have to be eliminated.

 

[joedrum]

the harden surface your talking about is not thin as paper ....its a lot thicker than your giving it ....these cams were made to wear in some ..... :mrgreen:

there no way your going to change the temper by hand you have to create heat to do that ....the total opposite is true you aint going to create enoygh heat or take off enought to hurt these cams in anyway dan not at all ..... :mrgreen:

right now all you need to do is zip it up and try it .....you are right there ...you can evalueate these cams now for use on a 83 geared bike get up and go you live in california by as soon as you get this done we will know if the cams handle your gears in the 83 ....you can take them out later after the ride and do whatever ....but i want to hear about a test ride :rant: :rant: :rant: :ahem: :mrgreen:

 

[dan filipi]

Ok Joe, test ride it is!

It's raining here and people don't know how to drive where I live on slick streets so it'll most likely not be until Sunday when there's less knuckleheads on the road.

 

[mcgovern61]

....but i want to hear about a test ride :rant: :rant: :rant: :ahem: :mrgreen:

He just wants to hear about a test ride because he is freezing his butt off at home and it sounds like a warm thing to do!!! :smilie_happy:

Hey..wait a minute....so am I!! :Awe: :Awe:

 

[joedrum]

thats interesting gerry what you said ....a soft knock not like two pieces of metal clanging .....maybe a knock thats soften up from spring cushioning hmmm :mrgreen: