Time for me to address the 800lb Gorilla in the room.(Engine knock thread) REVIVED!

[joedrum]

looky here im gonna post a picture ....this a picture of my 24 yr old daughter at her second birthday :mrgreen:

 

[dan filipi]

looky here im gonna post a picture ....this a picture of my 24 yr old daughter at her second birthday :mrgreen:

:yahoo: :yahoo: :salute:

 

[dan filipi]

I just did a video of a loose cam I have.
I'll post it up soon.

This vid is of a cam I have on the shelf that has 463 stamped on it.
Another loose one has MG9R stamp.

[flv]https://classicgoldwings.com/forum/vids/CamLobes.flv[/flv]

 

[joedrum]

i think what you had there was a 1100 cam i think .....but the video is all telling that is a horrible grind period ....your assumption are you made are pretty spot on ...i dont think its a good ideal to take it to a machine shop.....you could a lot better job by hand and not sacrifice so much cut .....im sure the rockers were looking bad too .....ive got to go now i will post later .....but no doubt theres all kinds of trama going on in that cams operation .....its like they used a hammer chissel and blind operator to make that cam... :mrgreen:

 

[dan filipi]

i think what you had there was a 1100 cam i think .....but the video is all telling that is a horrible grind period ....your assumption are you made are pretty spot on ...i dont think its a good ideal to take it to a machine shop.....you could a lot better job by hand and not sacrifice so much cut .....im sure the rockers were looking bad too .....ive got to go now i will post later .....but no doubt theres all kinds of trama going on in that cams operation .....its like they used a hammer chissel and blind operator to make that cam... :mrgreen:

Not doubting you Joe just trying to understand, but how could I possibly get a better cut by hand as opposed to a head shop?

On Susies cams they filled then ground. I've always thought that was the usual procedure for repairing a cam, that or replacement.
I don't have any kind of lathe or accurate machinery to cut something like this. The most accurate tool I have is a micrometer.

When this engine is running quiet it's like a new found joy and love for the bike.
I take it on long trips and plan to do more camping with it so I definitely want it to be reliable.

 

[dan filipi]

I took another look at those cams with my magnifying glasses and on both 463 cams I could see a "bump" and could totally feel it when running my finger over the lobe. Maybe not a bump like a raised line but it's certainly not a smooth glide around the lobe. The other MG9R cam is smooth all the way around on all lobes.

Could this bump cause the follower to leave the cam and knock back down?

Interesting!

(I merged this topic with the engine knock thread)

 

[mcgovern61]

The motor I have in those videos is a "good used" out of a 1981. I've put at least 15k miles on it since I shot those vids, it is running strong and I wouldn't hesitate to take it on 1000 mile trips or more because I've been inside it and know it's condition.

I did not pick up on this before, but the knocking engine is also an '81.

Someone had commented some of the noises could be piston slap, another said a flat cam.

Flat cam seems to be coming up at lot now and is a logical response to the location of the knocking on mine and yours!

As far as running thick oil goes it might offer some extra cushion, in my case it didn't help quiet anything. I tried just about every product out there to thicken oil to try an locate the noises, none of it seemed to lessen any of it.

Did the same thing with the same result! (I can't wait to look at the cam lobes on my '81 engine!) :whip:

Is it possible that the cams on the '81 were made elsewhere or different grade material than other 1100's? Just a thought.

 

[dan filipi]

(I can't wait to look at the cam lobes on my '81 engine!) :whip:

I was just going to ask if you can do that this weekend so we can put our heads together on this!

 

[AApple]

That cam is hammered. I've seen auto cams like that. In my experience, it has always come back to improper hardening of the lobes from the factory, OR improper break-in procedures. What did the bottom of the lifter(follower) look like?

"Notice of Jury Duty"??? :smilie_happy: :smilie_happy:

 

[joedrum]

okay dan if you look at the cam in your video is easy to read that first lobe was realy bad ....the only things on these cams tha are machined well are the cam carrier journals and when this cam was mounted and operating ...the frist lobe was riding on right hand side and not even touching the left side ...the shiney spot represents the high spot and at this point would need to be ground down slowly bringing it down to the left side and the curviture would have to be mellowed so it couldnt be ramp off the cam into flight to crash back in you can tell were it lands by looking at ....that whole air time area needs to be smooth and trued ....a light down angle with the cam is an all telling measuring tool light dosnt bend ,sag or ripple ....if you hold the cam in the light right you will be able to see every flaw with sight and thats better than any measuring device hands down .....as you go around the lobe you can see the edges where the cams and rockers wore into each other around the lobe this needs to be smooth out .....and on and on you get what i mean i think :mrgreen:

when i say that the 1100 motor is quiet maybe i sould be more expressive .....there is no noise in this motor where there was ....the noise is totaly eliminated!!!!!!!! this was all done by hand with total success .....the cams i did this to were worst looking than the ones on the video.....why spend money when you know that someone has gotten total success doing it by hand......eyes and hands are the best machines in the world period .....i will bet you that my job by hand will beat the machine shop .......its not hard its just teidious....its hard to over do it by hand .....when you put it in the light and you see no more facets and just smooth light reflextion the rocker is not going to jump anymore.....dont forget the rockers they will have the sme marks of trama smooth them out ....on you guys bikes where the noise is prononced check the rocker shafts for play as this kind of trama has to go to the next thing in line .....this can be fixed ...the rockers could be just to far gone too and would have to be replace in severe cases i would think.....its a lot more than just cam grind to bring this to quietness and reliability...... :mrgreen:

apple you wouldnt beleave it most seem to look this way :mrgreen:

the 1200 cams are more aggressive than 1100 cams which are the mildess....1200 have twice the overlap than 1000 or 1100 cams at 20degrees where 1000-1100 are 10 degrees allowing better breathing at lower rpm but not much in higher rpm but much better than 1100s....1200 cams in a 1100 would bring even more torque down low im not sur they would fit ...another topic :smilie_happy: :mrgreen:

 

[mcgovern61]

(I can't wait to look at the cam lobes on my '81 engine!) :whip:

I was just going to ask if you can do that this weekend so we can put our heads together on this!

I wish I could, but I am committed to a lot this weekend and have to prepare for heading to Rio Vista late next week. (New ferry coming!)

 

[dan filipi]

That cam is hammered. I've seen auto cams like that. In my experience, it has always come back to improper hardening of the lobes from the factory, OR improper break-in procedures. What did the bottom of the lifter(follower) look like?

"Notice of Jury Duty"??? :smilie_happy: :smilie_happy:

Oh yeah, they finally caught up with me with a certified letter this time.
Was real painless. The gal had me fill out a couple things and sent me home. Glad that's over with.

I think I'll have some time Sunday to tear down my runner and have a look at the cams and followers.
The heads, cams, and holders on the shelf are all mixed up so I don't know which go to which for mating comparison.

 

[joedrum]

dan i never herd of that number before 463 im trying to find out what they are ....do these cams have a skinney stem on one cam for the 1000 ignition to bolt to ...i check the 1100 cams i have and there was no number on them ......

yea when it looks like that ...those ridges you were talking about diffinitly means a rough ride to say the least dan

what apple said to temper ....welding and recutting takes the hardness out ....by hand working with what you got the temper will stay mostly ....

iwent for a ride today too the bikes new name is the angry dresser .....this cofirms the 1200 project will be .....75 1000 heads and cams with 1100 carbs :mrgreen:

 

[carl62cycles]

Hey this looks like the makings for a new knocking thread :clapping: :clapping:

I'll be back with some video's.

Cold start:

[video]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4FlEA5c8xl4[/video]

This was running cold

[video]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SsA1sWavJYk[/video]

[video]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UCMu4xe7LL0[/video]

Number 1 video of the engine knocking is fierce :heat: .Probably if the engine is turned over with engine switch (off) a couple of turns it would build some oil pressure and then hitting the switch to (on) while engine still turning would alleviate the knocking a bit. :headscratch:

 

[carl62cycles]

here's a better one with my DV camera which has a better microphone.


[video]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=us8MeKOxPZs[/video]

It's 68 degrees in the garage which starts about like Gerry's does on choke. Any colder it won't start this easy.
It'll idle at a lower rpm when cold with no choke but once warm the idle increases to about 950.

When it first starts you can hear the knock then goes away once the oil pressure comes up.

Oh, that knock you hear around 1 minute is something in the clothes dryer :smilie_happy:

I wouldn't let the bike idle to low (under 950) with cold engine. :nea:

 

[carl62cycles]

just to continue a thought dan .....it was obvious that theses cams from the 75 were running up and down on lumpy surface ....causing unequal pressure on the cams and rockers all the way to the valves ......when trued up the tension on the springs is smooth without ups and down over ridges causing ramping off the cams at high rpm which causes cam and rockers to crash into each other under different tension and causing uneven wear which creates even more lumpy wear .....and also causes loose tension on valve keepers and such setting up a failer machanicly.....on a smooth ride the cam and rocker just get smoother.....unless your testing the limits of the parts though drag racing and high rpm stupidity......

there seems to be no doubt that the 75 cams are right now smoother than the 1100 cams that were in it ......a smooth valve train is whorth some power and relibility in the pocket .....so in this respect the 75 cam job is an upgrade so far......

im looking out the window and its snowing .....i dont know if im going to be able to ride it today ....i still need to put stuff back together :mrgreen:

Right on joe :music: is great reading your posts :clapping:

 

[carl62cycles]

okay its cold and cloudy .....i couldnt help it i went for a ride after putting it all back together.....well its just like you would think its a little down on power at lower rpm and labors wanting you to shift to lower gear but not bad it was smooth in this range ......when i got to the hiway i went after the upper rpm and it sang a power song much different than before ...at first iwasnt to impressed but look down and the 82 speedo was buried ..thats not hard to do but i could tell it was happing faster than before ......so after that i tried to shake off the cold and clear my mind and pay attension .....the second time i notice when i got after it would pull the forks up and though the entire hi end and only drop down when i went for another gear .....before it would bring the forks up hard at first then let the bike back down while still going though the gear .....so theres no doubt that the bike running harder in the upper rpm and keeps it power there without falling off .....with that said i did notice that it seemed that the carbs fall off around 6800 rpm ....but still pulled hard .....it surprised me how much different the bike sounded it was playing a different song....im sure that the advance on the 1100 ignition is a lot different and is a mismatch to the cam ....ive read somewhere that it can be changed ......so as it stands right now im okay with it and it is faster but ithink there is more to do here to get full benefit from the change im going to find out how much different the advance is between 1100 and 75 1000....and see what ican do .....i did this to get some insite on the 1200 project .....

one thing ican say for sure is i like a bike that doesn't fall off and just make noise after a certain rpm ....the 82 is fully dressed and its moving out strong but there is more tweaking to do and still lots of options at this stage still the biggest is switching to 1000 ignition and dyna setup ...i will probably ride it like this for awhile and see what i can do with it in its 1100 ignition mode ....i need more saddle time ....ive said a lot for only going less than five miles while i was freezing im happy it running good ....you sould have seen how bad the cams looked before i worked om them ....so far so good.... :music2: :music: :rocks: :mrgreen:

Would have been nice to see pictures of that cam joe.But your great explanation of things does just fine with me.Reading your posts reminds me when I read about Donny petersen's book on harleys.Very meticulous insights in different aspects of mechanical functions.Very entertaining for sure. :hi: hats of to you.

 

[carl62cycles]

now that ive had time to ponder where its at and how the ride went....im sure that the vacume advance drops out quickly with the 75 cams and it s all machanical advance from there ....im thinking that when that happens the advance falls back a little and thats what i felt not the carbs falling off or at least its more the advance than carbs ....theres no doutb that the 1100 carbs are going to run short as compared to the 1000s much bigger carbs but im leaning to the advance right now ....i have figure out how to advance the timing on the 82-83 ignition but i havnt look yet on how hard this might be in the frame deal.....that might be my next move ...ther might be a sweet spot there that will work good with the 75 cams....its probably going to come down to using the 75 ignition and dyna upgrade ...then the only mismatch will be carbs

Ok Joe there you go again,last post I was thinking about the carbs (1000s that is).On this post you brought them up.Ok Just blow our minds and drop a set of 75s to match those cams :head bang: :mrgreen:

 

[carl62cycles]

Well, well. I think we need to revive the original knocking thread because this is getting interesting and I'm getting all excited thinking I may have a quiet engine one day!

Gerry, I think there is more to yours than just the knock.
Notice how the rpms are high and how fast the oil pressure drops even though the rpms didn't change.
To me that indicates a oil delivery problem.
Maybe a plugged pickup screen, or sucking air, bad oil pump, low oil level.
Ya know, a plugged scavenger pump could allow a lot of oil to dump into the rear engine case resulting in a low oil level which, maybe low enough for the main oil pump to suck air.

This is getting better by each post.Besides the video uploads makes it extremely accurate for all to understand.Great guys :rocks:

 

[carl62cycles]

dan i never herd of that number before 463 im trying to find out what they are ....do these cams have a skinney stem on one cam for the 1000 ignition to bolt to ...i check the 1100 cams i have and there was no number on them ......

yea when it looks like that ...those ridges you were talking about diffinitly means a rough ride to say the least dan

what apple said to temper ....welding and recutting takes the hardness out ....by hand working with what you got the temper will stay mostly ....

iwent for a ride today too the bikes new name is the angry dresser .....this cofirms the 1200 project will be .....75 1000 heads and cams with 1100 carbs :mrgreen:

Wouldn't the 1100 carbs run short in meeting the air filter box since 1200 engines are a bit longer from head to head?Thats what I was told some time ago.