Time for me to address the 800lb Gorilla in the room.(Engine knock thread) REVIVED!

[joedrum]

carl your kind words made me smile im glad you understand my ramed together sentenses and mispelled....what you have herd is right 1200 motor is agout a 1/4" wider on each side ....as the stroke is longer ....this is not going to be a problem for me ...idont even think aboout it....i will wait for the monent im doing it .....

one day i thinking about all possibilities on the 1200 project and it just jumped in my head about the possibility to put 75 cams in my 1100 without taking the heads loose as my mind raced i coulnt come up with a down side to doing this as the 1100 was running good with clean carbs and good ignition it was like the ultimate test platform ......in less than 48hrs it was done......its funny how some of the best things we do have no advanced intelect involved...its like someone just puts in there cause its obvious your not going to come up with it on your own :smilie_happy: :headscratch:

anyway ive rode my 79 1000 with its carb setup for yrs i know how 1000 carbs act there pluses and minises are .......when down low in the rpm there finicky and responsive if right ....and dont react at all and stumble if everything is not just right....they have a small window of operation .....after this mod to the 1100 its obvious to me that the 1100 carbs tame these 75 cams in the low rpm and are smooth as silk no more bucking and farting around like 1000 carbs can do ....they also pull hard on top end maybe not as much as the bigger 1000 carbs from a 75 .....but most of this is so high in the rpm zone i personaly dont go there much ....but the gain in smoothness and ridability 1100 carbs bring to the table is in play all the time ......

theres no doubt in my mind that the 75-77 cams are the perfect grind for this motor setup and when mated to 1100 carbs its just plain sweet .......this bike has no operating flaws at all ...the best attitude of any wing ive ever rode hands down .....at this point im not considering 77 1000 carbs i have at all on the 1200 project

as for the cams ....i never realy look at them before ...all those yrs riding the mongruel the motor was never open past valve covers ever....it was realy when i took those 75 cams out of the heads that i ever look at them up close .....now ive look at all the cams i have and it s pretty appairent that the transitions of the machining done on the cams falls off to sharply to keep the rocker smooth orbit around the lobe ....the cams are all telling ....especialy with some was just taking the cams out ....true them up ....and put them right back in ...there no doubt there would be a heck of an improvment ....kinda like the final hand machiming process

like apple said these bikes making big noise have proably got more than just cam wear trouble as in bad rockers worn shafts maybe ....it all tells a story when look at..... :mrgreen:

 

[dan filipi]

I tore the 1000 head down some last night, I still have to get the front bolt out to separate the cam holder from the front cover to get a better look and feel of the cam surface but it looks pretty good.
There might be one lobe with a little hump in it but I'll know better later today after work.

I did some measurement of lobe height of 2 cams with different numbers I listed earlier and there is a definite difference.
I'm not sure which has a higher lift, later or earlier but I wonder if the lift is shorter would the duration be longer and how do I measure that.
Fun stuff.

 

[scdmarx]

I'm not sure which has a higher lift, later or earlier but I wonder if the lift is shorter would the duration be longer and how do I measure that.
Fun stuff.

Degree wheel on the camshaft and dial indicator on the cam lobe.

A degree wheel can be made. A dial indicator can probably be found at Harbor Freight. Or borrowed?

You would measure how many degrees of cam rotation the valve is lifted off the seat. (How long the valve is open)

Usually the higher lift will have the longer duration and more overlap, but it all depends on how the cam was ground. Camshaft configuration dictates heavily on just how the engine is gonna "breath".

This is just a SWAG, but I'm guessing the shorter lift cam would be from the later engine. Shorter lift would improve low speed performance and smoother idle, with less overlap improving on tail pipe emissions and fuel economy.

 

[dan filipi]

There might be one lobe with a little hump in it but I'll know better later today after work.

It was a quick service call :yahoo:

That's the good news.

The bad news is I tore down all the heads I have including on the '83 parts bike and they all have considerable cam wear :crying:

So the next step.....

I might pull the runner heads down and have a look at those cam lobes.
My suspicion is they'll be in similar condition.

Cams new are discontinued so that option is out.

I have a 1200 head and cam......

(What does SWAG mean?)

 

[joedrum]

dan do you see the differenses in the 1000 cams and 1100 cams and 1200 cams ...put them in a picture all three ....iwant to see the 463 cams both of them in a still pic ....heck put pairs pic up on all your cams ......i would like a side by side pic of the 1200 cam against a 1100 cam to see if they are inter changable .....this is great you have all this loose to do this .....pateincly waiting :whistling: :headscratch: :whistling: :mrgreen:

 

[carl62cycles]

There might be one lobe with a little hump in it but I'll know better later today after work.

It was a quick service call :yahoo:

That's the good news.

The bad news is I tore down all the heads I have including on the '83 parts bike and they all have considerable cam wear :crying:

So the next step.....

I might pull the runner heads down and have a look at those cam lobes.
My suspicion is they'll be in similar condition.

Cams new are discontinued so that option is out.

I have a 1200 head and cam......

(What does SWAG mean?)

Same question here!!!Looked it up (websters 2)Slang,stolen money or property:Booty. :good:

 

[dan filipi]

dan do you see the differenses in the 1000 cams and 1100 cams and 1200 cams ...put them in a picture all three ....iwant to see the 463 cams both of them in a still pic ....heck put pairs pic up on all your cams ......i would like a side by side pic of the 1200 cam against a 1100 cam to see if they are inter changable .....this is great you have all this loose to do this .....pateincly waiting :whistling: :headscratch: :whistling: :mrgreen:

Ok, here's a side by side photo.

Without actually taking close measurements I see no difference between the 1000 and 1100 cams, except for the points carrier of course.
The center journal on the 1200 cam is longer and has a extra little casting lip around on the front end. Other than these they all look identical.

IMG 0516

• dan filipi
• Dec 11, 2010

(click for a larger Gallery image)

 

[dan filipi]

I think I'm gonna do it!

I'm going to put the 1000 cam in.
This way I get the points ignition so I can adjust the timing.
Too far advanced causing a knock (detonation) is one thing I've been wondering could be the cause of the knock.

The lobe height measures the same against the other 1100 cams I have so maybe it won't be too out of balance.
If nothing else I'll find out if the knock has lessened.

 

[joedrum]

have you figured out yet what the 463 cams are yet are they 1000s ........the 1000s cam could the number 431 on it or nothing except L-R and maybe a letter.....the ones without the number are 371s early 75-77 cams .....the 431 cams are 78-79....

it looks like the 1200 cams will interchange in the head ....but for one to use them in a 1100 or 1000 you would have to go with electric fuel pump and no tack....

dan with all the new info it seems that changing the timing on your 83 is easy ....just loosen the cinch bolt at the vacume clylinder and rotate it ....the rod out of the vacume cylinder is threaded that hooks to the ignition plate ....just rotate to advance or retard ....very percise ....when you get what you want just cinch the bolt back down so it wont move great setup if everything is working right.....

anyway try to come up with a number on the cams from the 1000s you want to use or the lack of a number......and please indentify what cam the 463 is 1000-1100or 1200 thanks :mrgreen:

 

[Flinx]

SWAG = S(?) W(ild) A(ss) G(uess)

S could stand for Stupid, Silly or a few others. Depends on the person I guess :grin: I've seen it a few ways over the years.

Interesting posts. So far my 83 doesn't seem to make any of those noises but then maybe I've just been lucky so far (knocking on wood).

 

[dan filipi]

Good news so far!

To answer the question if a 1200 cam would fit I went an put the 1200 cam instead of the 1000.
This cam is in real good shape.

It's running and sounds good except for some lifter tap.
I rushed the adjustments so they are loose.

I'm about 90 percent convinced the knock is from the cams.
The side that I did had a definite knock but not as loud as the right side but now running on the 1200 cam there is no knock.
Tomorrow I'll adjust the lifters and run it longer.

First start up with the 1200 cam.
(It helps to turn the gas on)

[flv]https://classicgoldwings.com/forum/vids/FirstStartWith1200Cam.flv[/flv]

 

[joedrum]

good job dan....you know this could be quite the upgrade....the 1200 cams have 20 degree overlap compaired to 10 degree on 1100 cams ....allowing the exhast flow out exhast wave to start the intake proccess under power to fill the cylinders better .....this is the biggest reason 1200s run stronger than 1100s with even better low end torque.....if you had an electric fuel pump and made a cap to cover the fuel pump hole it would be something test for benifits i think they could be big ....

it would be a wealth of kowledge if you could put this to test dan.... :mrgreen: still want to know about those 463 cams and the other 1000 cams you have..i dont care how bad they look..... :mrgreen:

its hard for me tell for sure but it dose sound better to me dan :mrgreen:

 

[dan filipi]

Ok first the cam numbers.

Where I'm not sure if it's an 1100 cam I put a (?) next to it. I'm not sure because these heads were never labeled where they came from.
The numbers and letters are inline down the length of the cam, each line below indicates that and each are groups of characters separated by a comma:

1000 Left
R2, LH, D
A

1100 Left
R5, LH, C
463, B

1100 (?) Right
R6, RH, M
463, W

1100 Left that was in my runner
R5, LH, L
463, U

My assumptions are:
the LH and RH must indicate left or right hand head.
The 463 is an 1100 cam because the 1000 cam doesn't have a 3 number set.
Dunno what the other single characters mean or the R2, R5, and R6.

 

[dan filipi]

I adjusted the valves this morning which quieted down the clatter for the most part, still clatters some around 2500-4000 rpm but much better.

It is definitely quieter on the left side with this 1200 cam.
The right side I can hear the knock as usual but now it's certain the knock is coming from the right side.
Before with the other 1100 cam in the left I could hear a faint knock which I wasn't sure if it carried over from the right side. I'm sure it wasn't now, they are separate knocks left and right.

It runs a bit "lopey" like it's out of sync. That would make sense since I'd guess it's breathing differently left and right.

Well since I don't have a 1200 cam for the right I'm not sure what I'm going to do next.
All of the cams on the shelf are pretty well worn and/or pitted so I don't have one good left and one good right.
I should have a chance this week to visit the head shop and see what they can do.
If I'm gonna have them rework the cams (fill and grind)I suppose I could have them cut to any spec 1000, 1100, or 1200.

 

[dan filipi]

It just occurred to me I could put the 1200 cam in the right.
Alot of work but I could be certain that way if the knock is gone on the right.

 

[joedrum]

yea dan it would be a good mod maybe to go with 1200 cams .....its certainly got my attension about the possibilities.....im thinking of doing the same ....ive been wondering for awhile about this switch as i have a pair of 1200 cams but not enough to tear into the 1200 motor yet ...its all together waiting on me to do something.....

im thinking i might put them in the 82 ....i was thinking this morning what a perfect test devise it is .....i already know how it is with 75 cams .....i could slip the 1200 cams in .....fill the gas tank full and rely on gravity feed for the test run ......what better way to test cams than the same bike.....

do you have the other 1200 cam ...i was thinking you didnt ......if you like the results of the 1200 cams change ....adding an electric fuel pump is easy to complete it ...you could be the first i know of to try this mod ......im to true up another set of cams by hand ....i will put some pics up now when i do this so all can see...

do you have a set of 1000 cams left and right with no number stamped on them i need another set

as far as you are into it now id go for the cam switch your so close to doing it :mrgreen:

have you been checking the fit of the rockers to the rocker shafts ...there may be slop there as loud as some of the noise is on your bike ....if you do this switch and like it you need to go over everything on the top side of the head.....go for it :mrgreen:

 

[dan filipi]

Left 1000 cam yes, I don't know about a right.
What numbers would be on the right?

Only have one 1200 cam.

The way I think I'm going to go with this is have the cams done at the head shop.
What I need to figure out now is what spec would give me the most bang for the buck, 1000, 1100, or 1200.
And among those, which year spec.

A lot of research to do unless you have that info already.

 

[scdmarx]

Do you think you'll need to do any rejetting with the 1200 cams?

 

[joedrum]

hmmm thats to bad dan ...iwish you had the other 1200 cam to complete what you got going on ...personaly im thinking it would kick butt in the lower end and mid rpm and it seems the carbs would perfect fit to ....do you understand about the fuel pump mod that would have to be done .....

hmm if you want to do this i could send you my 1200 cams ....1200 cams are going to be in better shape tham 1000-1100 cams because of the hydralic valves


as for the 1000 cam for the other side it would have L for left and the same letter stamped on it and have the fuel pump drive ....it may have another letter stamped on it ....it just cant have the number 431 stamp on it that would be 78-79 cam and a different grind....may be we could trade cams dan if you want some good 1100 cams i have some of those too and you could just stay stock and get rid of the noise in your motor....let me know what you would like to do ....i could even do a cam hand camjob on them or the 1200 cams ....if you dont try the 1200 cams im going to....ithink we could trade back and forth and postage and beat the cam shop big time in money spent .... :mrgreen:

ron ithink the carbs will be dead on

 

[scdmarx]

ron ithink the carbs will be dead on

Ya, you're probably right.

...personaly im thinking it would kick butt in the lower end and mid rpm and it seems the carbs would perfect fit to ....

I think I've gleaned from this thread that the 1200 cams have more overlap :?: :?: :?:
If I understand this correctly, then I think the powerband would move to the mid to upper end range.

Here is an article on camshaft that explains the basics pretty plain and easy to understand. One of the easiest that I've ever read. Keeping in mind that this is for a straight, single cam v8 motor, but the basics are the same. You will find in this article that the "overlap" is a result of timing the events of valve operation and the reasons for it. If the 1200 was achieved by means of a longer stroke, then a different cam profile would be needed for optimization.
https://www.hotrod.com/techarticles/113_9811_camshaft_tech_valve_timing_piston_movement/index.html

Any ponderance on my part is not etched in stone. Intended more as "question" than "statement".
This is an interesting camp and I'm just trying to throw another log on the fire. :salute:

As for the cam lobes wearing the uneven surfaces you described, and confirmed by Dan....like AApple says, these contributions could be from impropper break-in, temper issues during manufacturing, inadequite oiling, etc. Realizing Dan is chaseing a noise, (not really a performance issue) I would not overlook valve bounce (or floating) causing a "hammering" effect on the cam lobes. And now with the valve train worn over the years, induceing the "hammering" effect even more. To the point that now you can hear it making noise at certain RPM's. Fatigued springs and/or worn parts/loose tollerances could be among the contributing culprits.