1985 GL1200 Limited ECU Replacement/Upgrade - Part 2

[Rednaxs60]

Short update, as if that is possible. I fashioned a case timing mark pointer and set it to be at #1 TDC:

This pic shows the crank trigger wheel with white paint on the trigger wheel teeth for engine degree timing:


I am using the crank trigger wheel as the engine timing degree indicator. Every tooth and valley between teeth is 3mm and equates to 5 degrees each:

Extremely accurate and works well. Now that have the engine timing correct and can monitor it easily, on to the engine tune. This is progressing, but still have an engine stumble. Have adjusted the coil dwell time and spark duration, but no joy.

Only two aspects Cana affect and make the engine stumble, fuel and ignition. I'm going to look into the fuel to the fuel pump from the tank, make sure the fuel is flowing as freely as possible. Will bypass the fuel shutoff valve.

Have three fuel pumps to use. Have used the OEM, and one of the aftermarket fuel pumps, one left to try. The engine has its signature stumble with both of these. One left to try, will swap if necessary after I do the fuel tank to fuel pump test.

 

[Rednaxs60]

Have ordered two Cherry GS100701 Hall effect sensors for use. Will be fashioning a sensor holder and fit it to the test engine I have. Has good temperature range -40 degrees to 125 degrees C. Length of one inch and diameter of 1/2 inch. The spec sheet mentions that that it needs an external pull-up restore of 1K for a 5 VDC signal (1K pull-up resistor already installed on Speeduino v0.4 board. Has an internal/integrated magnet. Will be using the second PB sensor wiring for connecting to the ECU, used the other PB sensor wiring for the O2 sensor connection.

Not to say I do a lot of research on the internet but I do. Lots of information available and some I use because the information supports my premise/theories. There are a lot of forums to visit regarding aftermarket EFI systems, and. a lot of information on this forum as well.

Found information regarding the crankshaft sensor and that this can possibly explain the annoying engine stumble the engine has.

Quote: "The PCM uses the signal from the crankshaft position sensor to determine at what time to produce the spark and in which cylinder. The signal from the crankshaft position is also used to monitor if any of the cylinders misfires. Crankshaft position sensor signal Crankshaft position sensor signal on the oscilloscope screen. If the signal from the sensor is missing, there will be no spark and fuel injectors won't operate. " This does not infer the engine will stop completely, but it may be a plausible explanation for what is happening.

Thinking a loss of signal from the Ns sensor will also generate a sync loss.

The OEM VR sensor has a resistance in the 297 to 363 ohm range. Have read that newer ECUs may require a VR sensor with a resistance in the 1200 ohm range. Rule out nothing.

A member on the NGW forum summarized this by mentioning that an older EFI system has components that have been coupled together and made to work by the OEM. Even though the EFI system works, OEMs have better tools/toys to make the EFI system work, does not mean that these EFI components are compatible with these newer ECUs. This could be applicable to the older '85/'86 GW CFI system that has 2 camshaft sensors, two MAP sensors, rather oversize fuel injectors, and such.

This is one of those lessons learned issue(s). Be prepared to replace components that appear to work with the old EFI system, but are not optimal for the new EFI system.

More head scratching and testing/experimentation to be done.

 

[Rednaxs60]

Will be away for a few weeks, sister is getting married. In the interim, I have been reviewing and editing my EFI document, now at 55 pages. I'm happy with its development and feel it is a good representation of my journey so far. I am posting a PDF version for your perusal. Constructive comments are always good and gratefully accepted. The information in the document is a s accurate as possible at this time, and will probably be edited more before I am finished. Enjoy the bedtime, sleep insomnia reading.

 

[Rednaxs60]

Forgot to attach the acronym document.

 

[Rednaxs60]

If there are areas that could benefit from additional information, let me know. Have started editing what is there and have thoughts for the way forward. Cheers

 

[Rednaxs60]

The Cherry Hal Effect sensors arrived today. Have the sensor installed on the test engine, will be suing a bit of silicone on the securing nuts to prevent movement. Have made a 3/8 inch cover spacer to accommodate the Hall effect sensor. Will be trialing these sensors when back from Ontario. The spacer is ABS I think. It is installed on the operating engine for a temperature test, should be okay because of location.

The camshaft VR sensor(s) do not do well at lower RPMs. Recommended on may forum threads to replace with a Hall effect sensor.

Changing back to a dual wheel system is my objective. Using the cam shaft sensor enables sequential fuel injection, much like the OEM system. Should be able to continue using the 36-1 crank trigger wheel. All these changes get into wiring.

Should be able get an initial timing trigger angle using the test engine.

Pictures:

 

[Rednaxs60]

Question for the collective. Two CFI system pressure balance (PB) sensors. Using the vacuum ports on the injector holders into a vacuum mixing block then out to the ECU on-board MAP sensor. Engine vacuum is at 9-10 inches of Hg that relates to approximately 60-65 kPa MAP sensor reading. This is in the upper engine load range, and the engine is only at idle. MAP reading should be in the lower 35-40 kPa range at idle - approximately 20 inches of Hg. Have read some forum threads where this does not make a difference, but I think it does. No variable valve timing on these engines. The vacuum gauge(s) indicate that this low engine vacuum is either air leaks, or intake valve timing is late, and cannot be adjusted on the 1200 engine. Any thoughts?

More research to be done, but first, sister's wedding to attend to.

 

[julimike54]

I always thought that some of the highest vacuum readings occur at idle and decel, but it's been a long while since I messed with that stuff.

 

[dan filipi]

I've never seen the vacuum up in the "green" scale at idle on the gauges like you'd expect. Not sure why that is, might be the gauge is designed for V8 engines?

 

[Rednaxs60]

Thanks for the replies. Comments as expected. Wondering if Honda used the two PB sensors to somehow get the input signal to the ECU to be that related to a MAP reading of approximately 40 kPa. This picture of the spark (ignition) table illustrates my point. The red box indicates where I am at presently in the 60 to 70 kPa range. The black box is where I think it should be and where I want to be at idle. The timing values are changing as I go:

 

[julimike54]

I just searched the vacuum scenario here...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manifold_vacuum
It reflects what I described. What I'm not sure is this is on a typical engine versus how a FI system might work, but would think the principles are similar.

In looking for what a typical Goldwing might run or motorcycle, vacuum wise. I ran across a post on the Steve Suanders (sp?) sight and a guy had measured 10" (on his 1200) but was never given a definite answer (other than might be low). In continuing the search I found another that read the same and had a similar question ad you (gauge indicates low)....

https://www.triumphrat.net/threads/correct-carb-vacuum.204060/
I looked at some of the things that are on the Wing and the low spec was 9.8" the high spec was 18.9". This is the different things (that I could think of) hooked up to use 'vacuum' and took that as this would be a somewhat typical operating range of vacuum? I could be all wet on that

I'll be wondering....

 

[OldWing SEI]

 

[OldWing SEI]

View attachment 49947My STD and SEI produce 21 cm/Hg at idle, that corespondents to 28 kPa and it increases at higher rpm.

 

[Rednaxs60]

Thanks for the reply. Checked the "oracle" (google) again and you're spot on. Will have to check the MAP sensor and do some investigating.

 

[Rednaxs60]

Back from my sister's wedding and time to get their project moving again. This next trial period is going to be addressing the MAP issue. Don't know where I am going with this, but have to get the MAP reading down a bit to around 30-40 kPa. Having the engine load at idle in the 60-70 kPa range uses more fuel and reduces the ability to tune for good drivability.

First step will be to check the voltage out of the on-board MAP sensor. Looking for a max DC voltage of 1.3 VDC or very close to.

There is a few posts on the Speeduino forum where the inmate has used the on-board MAP sensor for baro corrections and an off board MAP sensor for MAP.

Once this issue is corrected can move forward much better.

Mentioned in my new thread about tools that I have ordered a DC voltage power supply. Will be using it to test/trial the Hall Effect sensors I received in August.

 

[Rednaxs60]

Just wanted to mention that I appreciate all the comments/suggestions that have been given, and the "likes" on this and my other threads - readership and following means a lot. Makes me think, misguided or otherwise, that I am contributing and providing good information for those who will follow. I've collected and using a bit of information from the various forum threads. These pictures are of what I have in hard copy, not to mention the websites, forum posts, bookmarks that are on my computer. My partner Sonya thinks I'm a bit out in left field when it comes to my GW:

 

[jsphcarswell]

Just wanted to mention that I appreciate all the comments/suggestions that have been given, and the "likes" on this and my other threads - readership and following means a lot. Makes me think, misguided or otherwise, that I am contributing and providing good information for those who will follow. I've collected and using a bit of information from the various forum threads. These pictures are of what I have in hard copy, not to mention the websites, forum posts, bookmarks that are on my computer. My partner Sonya thinks I'm a bit out in left field when it comes to my GW:

View attachment 49979View attachment 49980

I have been following this story even though I have an older first gen Goldwing and it makes me think about a gizmo called the Redox ecu that I have installed on my 2019 Royal Enfield Himalayan. It is a programmable fuel computer with laptop software that is used to tune the bike when upgrades are made like performance cams or big bore pistons. It is not a piggyback version like you see so often but a standalone replacement. It was reasonably priced and the software is so straightforward, I wondered if you had any knowledge of it?
Seems like a perfect fit for your project
Anyway I am impressed with your work. Keep it up and good luck

 

[Rednaxs60]

I have been following this story even though I have an older first gen Goldwing and it makes me think about a gizmo called the Redox ecu that I have installed on my 2019 Royal Enfield Himalayan. It is a programmable fuel computer with laptop software that is used to tune the bike when upgrades are made like performance cams or big bore pistons. It is not a piggyback version like you see so often but a standalone replacement. It was reasonably priced and the software is so straightforward, I wondered if you had any knowledge of it?
Seems like a perfect fit for your project
Anyway I am impressed with your work. Keep it up and good luck

I had a 2021 RE Himalayan. 90 MPG, upgraded the suspension and changed the seat. Will have another one in a few years. Nothing like what you are mentioning was on the bike.

Thanks for the favourable comment, Still at it.

 

[Rednaxs60]

Back at the testing.

Received the DC power supply from Amazon. Used it today to bench test the Cherry GS100701 Hall effect sensors with the OEM single tooth cam trigger wheel, and the OEM 8 tooth crank trigger wheel. Drill press RPM used was 1100 and 3100. Understand why the Hall Effect sensors are a preferred sensor depending on the application. Power supply set at 5 VDC and used a 1K ohm pull up resistor. Think the V0.4 boards have this pull up resistor on the board using jumpers 4 and 5. Jumpers 2 and 3 would be set to Hall. Once I get the mounting for the crank hall sensor finished will install the hall sensor. Want to confirm that the crank sensor is not causing the engine stumble. Understand the trigger edge will be "Rising" with the Hall effect sensor.

The pictures from the oscilloscope are quite good. Small tails on the rise to 5 VDC and back to "0" VDC. Thinking this is mostly because of the wiring setup that is not too sophisticated.

Here are the pics for 1100 RPM:

Crank Trigger Wheel -1100 RPM.JPG (89.59 KiB) Not viewed yet

Cam Trigger Wheel - 3100 RPM.JPG (92.9 KiB) Not viewed yet
Here are the pictures for 3100 RPM:

Cam Trigger Wheel - 3100 RPM.JPG (64.43 KiB) Not viewed yet

Crank Trigger Wheel 3100 RPM - 1.JPG (89.69 KiB) Not viewed yet
The initial starts with the VR cam sensor had a sync loss In the middle of the pulse trace. Not seeing it with the Hall effect sensor.

I have a 36-1 trigger wheel that I can chuck up and test as well. Might be a good idea, can't hurt.

Will continue with the 36-1 crank trigger wheel for now. Changing at a later date for the dual wheel setup. Will change to the OEM 8 tooth trigger wheel at that time.

 

[Rednaxs60]

Checked the 36-1 crank trigger wheel as well. The oscilloscope trace is not as clean. I like and prefer the trace from the OEM 8 tooth trigger wheel with the Hall Effect sensor.

These pics are the 36-1 trigger wheel. The first is at 1100 RPM and second at 3100 RPM:


Went looking for the proper terminology for the small spikes on the traces, think flyback is what I want to say. There is trigger filter setting in Tuner Studio to smooth out this signal.