Hooch cooling system pushing out water from cap

[joedrum]

Pics

This is the head side of the gasket ...one thing you can see is this gasket had one hole not punched out out ....sheesh I should have seen that :doh: ...another point is ...you can see the dimple effect here ..and this is on the head side that’s all metal backing ...the way the goo gaskets are made it’s like a bed of nails ...not a good thing when sealing is the purpose here sheesh ....

Ok this is the block side of this gasket ...you can really see the dimple effect big time ..also you can see how the gasket is really swelled up ...this is like the poorest condition and excuse for a head gasket and it’s purpose I’ve ever seen ...I can’t believe this hasn’t like come to me till now ...I’ve dealt with these head gaskets a long time ..I feel stupid not seeing this before

This is head side of other gasket and to me really shows it all ...in this gasket between the cylinder you see flaking going on or melted out ...something ...it’s interesting to note this is at place of highest pressure and from both cylinders and about the furthest away from the closest head bolts ...

The dimple effect on the make up of this gasket is an engineering stupidity of the highest order ..the goo make up of this gasket that doesn’t stand up to coolant is at the same level ...you can see the swell ness everywhere in this block side pic and separated surface ..this gasket was not that old ....this alone is the problem the hooch bike is having in my opinion..in hand it was obvious this gasket was leaking exhaust gas in the cooling system ..it started out barely to increasing as it went ...even Honda brand gaskets are made this way ...it’s a gamble for sure with the gaskets I’m trying now ....but it my opinion so far the 8$ gasket I’m trying beats the the best Honda gasket out there ...time will tell ...making a bed of nails gasket that’s make up doesn’t hold up to condition of the motor and coolant to me is just flat out obvious in my opinion

Oh this is very important gaskets here are barracuda brand gaskets ...not Honda brand ..I think this is Sabre brand ...but make up is very similar ...especially the dimple effect deal ...goo make up could be different

 

[mcgovern61]

Joe, clarify which set of head gaskets these are. Are these the last ones used that you saw water pushing out and are not the ones you just installed right?

 

[joedrum]

mcgovern61 » Tue Nov 19, 2019 10:08 am[/url]":1e2jbn7l]
Joe, clarify which set of head gaskets these are. Are these the last ones used that you saw water pushing out and are not the ones you just installed right?

Yes Gerry they are the ones that I took off ..that were pushing water out ...they are rusty looking cause they have been laying outside ...but this made somethings very clear ...and they are barracuda brand gaskets sold by saber ....the gaskets I use we’re of completely different make up ....

The barracuda gaskets seem typical of all goo gaskets I’ve ever used it seems ..but who knows ...also these gaskets were not on very long ...and I’m not blaming the gaskets totally ...hooch is a very powerful modded motor ...it should noted that Eric has posted in here and has had a very similar situation with his motor ...his and my motor have more in common than to stock motors for sure ...and this and the talk of expansion tank and cooling system all weigh in here ....

 

[DaveKamp]

As far as cavitation goes ...water no different than air flow ...if the drag gets big enough behind blade that it runs into the next blade there’s no feed to it rather plain and simple ..but all this would decrease flow ...so I’m thinking it’s a non issue except for one thing ..if you stayed there the motor would get hot ...

Water and airflow both fall under 'fluid dynamics', but they ARE different:

Gasses are compressible... Liquids are not.

Liquids are liquids because the temperature is low enough, and pressure is high enough, so that they remain liquid.

When you reach a point of temperature high enough, at a given pressure, or a pressure low enough, at a given temperature, something called PHASE CHANGE occurs.... liquids become gases. In the same path, gases, when subjected to enough pressure at a given temperature, will become liquid, or when, at a given pressure, are cooled to a sufficient temperature, will become liquid.

It didn't matter wether the class was on hydraulic or pneumatic systems, I always started with ONE FULL DAY of class dedicated to fluid dynamics principles. Any student who missed that day, would be totally helpless through the rest of the class, so I made certain that any that missed that day, wound up in a 'catch up session' before the next classtime.

The rules that I made them all recite:

Any hydraulic system with air bubbles in it... is Pneumatic.
Any pneumatic system with oil or water in it... is Hydraulic.
Any Fluid Power System with ice in it... is FROZEN.
Any Fluid Power System with DIRT in it... is BAD.

And on the sign on the outside of the classroom door:

Plumbing, not Money, is the Root of All Evil.

 

[ekvh]

I wish I had taken pictures of the last set of copper when I switched to the 1200 heads. One thing is clear that the water jacket holes are not lined up very well and cut into the cylinder surface. If I order any more, I will ask him to move the ring of water holes out a little. I also wonder about cutting open the trapezoidal holes. That said, it doesn’t look as though it was leaking where the holes are over the cylinder wall.

The other part which might be a factor in using copper is the annealing process. With just a propane torch, you can get the copper orange, but not all at the same time. So when you finish one side and move to the other, the first part is already cooling. The last time I did it, I tried to keep waving it back and forth but a simple propane plumbers torch wasn’t enough heat to keep it all orange and quench quickly.

Dave, how much additional energy- heat is used or created - during cavitation? Maybe a zero factor since you change states liquid to gas, but then turn it right back to liquid.

I remember taking students to a zero vacuum machine and showing them a room temperature container of water, reduce pressure to see it boiling, then removing it and feeling the water temp to show it wasn’t heating up as normal water boils like on a stove.

 

[joedrum]

Let’s stick to the issues of the topic ...heck with the big words and principals ...if a hurricane is on the ground can’t pull any deeper it’s creates an eye ...inside the eye of hurricane it’s a great day period ...nothing going on ...same thing happens when you spin something faster than it’s boundaries to work ...rather plain and simple ....the biggest issue here is the gaskets so far in this thread ...as the person who is doing the work and looking at everything this seems to be the biggest issue ....if you want to debate the gaskets are fine do so ...but I’m trying to to show how poorly designed these gaskets are for oldwing motor ...look at the pic it just seems obvious to me ...

 

[desertrefugee]

Joe, a lot of folks are actively engaged in this thread, and it has spawned a number of different subject lines. Some of that is due to assumptions that you made with regard to what the problem originally was. It apparently never was an overheating condition, and yet we spent a couple of pages on this thread addressing that potential. To suggest that we're straying off topic is not fair to those who've contributed.

In fact, the spontaneous discussions have been the appeal in this thread all along. Hooch in this case has just been the vehicle for discussion. I think we've all benefited.

 

[joedrum]

I agree Darrel ....big time the thread is school education or what ever title ...I don’t mean things are not important at all ...I’ve mention these things in the thread as you pointed out ... there is also new points brought out about the gaskets ...big points ...as my bike goes the degrading of the gaskets happens fast on this last set . .. maybe s fast or faster than a supercharge bike ....not sure there ...I have a lot of supercharger experience with a supercharge and intercooled air to air car I had for a couple decades ...the motor was built to be blown ...with the belt off it would hardly run at all ...the compression was so low ..but you could boost it to 12 plus lbs ..if I remember right. If seen 14 lbs ...but oldwing motors in no way can be boosted like that ....so my motor and boosted oldwing motor are very close to same thing ...money and my experience with my supercharge car kept me away from ever going there ...but I did go with cool gas charge on the intake ...man that air to air intercooler at speed turned that 230CI V6 motor into a monster that would burn rubber at 75mph when it shifted gears ...hooch snaps hard at gear changes too ...the manifold is insulated from the head heat and the gas charge sees no real heat till it enter the head ...this along with other mods makes this motor get down to business quickly and is hard on these type of gaskets that are available for oldwings ...in my opinion ...I’ve got my fingers crossed on the gaskets I tried and keeping coolant in the radiator without loosing any ...I’m thinking rather strong I’ve got a good chance ...I also think the longer expansion tank hose and bleed back in the expansion tank may be the mod the keeps it from loosing water ..I believe if everything stays full I’ve got the problem beat ....I think I’ll do a 50 mile run right now ..I’d say it’s in the 80s today ....

 

[DaveKamp]

Dave, how much additional energy- heat is used or created - during cavitation? Maybe a zero factor since you change states liquid to gas, but then turn it right back to liquid.

Best demonstration is using a 'water brake'... basically, an impeller inside a closed vessel, churning fluid. You have an input shaft that's spinning the impeller, and friction inside is converting that churning into heat. True to First Law of Thermodynamics, No additional energy is 'created'... what comes in through the input shaft is turned into other forms... and the basics are greatest- noise and heat... and the sum of what comes out,will always equal what goes IN.

The part that is 'bad news'... is the 'noise'... the cavitation creates extremely high frequency energy (audio freq), and at incredibly tightly-focused intensities. I've INTENTIONALLY demonstrated cavitation with my boats, and in doing so, had observers standing in waist-deep water on the beach a hundred yards away hearing the hiss as I pushed it into cavitation, and upon return, removed and displayed a brand-new propeller with half the paint stripped off, and considerable pitting all along the trailing edge. The pitting was caused by shock- the sonic high-frequency shock caused by cavitation, and sudden collapse of the bubbles.

You've heard of 'water hammer'? That's what happens when you shut off your kitchen faucet, and the pipes start to oscillate like a jackhammer. Have you ever used a tight-fitting rod and a fistful of grease to hydraulically 'drive' out a crankshaft pilot bushing?

Cavitation creates shock waves which will erode nearby metals like they're halloween candy at a birthday party.

There's no more 'energy' created, but when cavitation occurs, it can do some really incredible things.

Cavitation, however, is NOT the issue here- the diameter of the impeller is too small for the rotation speed of the pump shaft, to create the kind of velocity necessary to result in cavitation, elevated temperature equated by a closed-system's pressure, it just won't happen on a 2" impeller at any speed under 15,000rpm or so.

------------------------

Joe- It is my opinion that the conditions that Hooch has been exhibiting are not related to engine waste heat, but just simple combustion gas pressure leaking into the cooling passages. You've been focused on what you felt the problem was, and looked only for evidence to support it, rather than looked for clues, and followed the evidence backwards.

I think the missing hole is something important... that's a defect that cannot be overlooked in circumstance...

Under Ockham's Razor, the most likely circumstance of more than one possible scenario, is the one that is most simple. In this case, you're developing lots of combustion pressure, and the head-to-block interface, by virtue of several factors, is difficult to seal. I think the three greatest challenges are the fact that the heads, though interchangeable, are not necessarily in full alignment, hence, gasket clamping isn't as secure as using matched head-and-block combinations, and that using gaskets made for either 1100 or 1200 in said mix-match, that neither is really well-suited to that mismatch, regardless of quality... and finally, that it will be extremely sensitive to proper gasket pressure in order for a challenged gasket to survive.

The absoulte possible best option would be to make a custom gasket design SPECIFIC to this head combination, and probably set it up with the head-block interface to have an annealed copper O-ring around each bore, just to contain compression/combustion pressure, as you didn't report any other problems with coolant or lubricant leaks.

Run the heck out of it, Joe, and re-check that head torque. If it's just right, you probably have it licked.

 

[joedrum]

Yes I agree Dave ...exhaust gases is what eventually happen to start pushing water out ...but in rather sure heat and poorly engineered gaskets led to that ..simply cause the bike is so powerful and powerful is directly related to more heat to get rid of ..causing goo gaskets to melt away around and in fire ring and it certainly doesn’t help that goo gaskets swell up in contact with coolant ......this was all totally evident in the goo gaskets that just were not on very long before failure ...and the dimple effect of how these gasket are made is absolutely the stupidest engineering design I’ve ever seen use on something that suppose to seal ...when the outcome is reducing even torque ..Also if you look at the gaskets at the fire ring you can see it is very narrow ...you can see the impression the cylinder sleeve on the gasket ..this area is subject to a lot of heat right on the goo ...thiscwhere inthink it all goes bad for these goo gaskets ...lots of heat right there ..dimple effect engineering and failure in my opinion ...the gaskets i put on and I’ve mentioned this before the fire ring is much wider ..the substrate under it is much smoother ..has no signs of dimple effect engineering ..and seems to be more solid surface than goo makeup ...I’m so glad I gambled on these cheaper gaskets ...cause after reviewing things they were worth gambling on ...over the much more expensive barracuda gaskets ...

Today I’m going to retorque the heads as I have to stop valve cover leak anyway ...

 

[mcgovern61]

they are barracuda brand gaskets sold by saber

I hate to say this, but I'm sure you know that there has been a long history of folks using the Saber Cycle head gaskets and having them blow in a very short period of time with standard, unmodified 1100 engines, right?

 

[joedrum]

I agree to one thing Gerry ...there is a long history of Randakks attacking anything saber ever sold along with anything anybody else sold that wasn’t his products ...as far as barracuda brand gaskets go ..they are a new product ...how do I know this ...there gaskets actually fit right ...after market gaskets sold for yrs that were not Honda had to be filed on to fit ...as for Honda brand gaskets being better ..we have a member here and moderator who has blown many Honda brand gaskets ..in witch he commented that Honda brand gaskets were no better than other gaskets sold for oldwings ...apple is a wrench man by trade and his words have punch ....especially here on this forum ...now that we are talking this ..I’ll say the gaskets I ave tried this time I’ve got a good feeling about ..for things already said in my posts ....I’m thinking as far as my bike goes the gaskets are the culprit not cavitation or other things talk here ...

 

[joedrum]

Well went for nice long ride ...everything went really well ...man I just loved this bike ...seems the mod of getting rid of the thermostat ...the extra long overflow hose that drains back into expansion tank ...and the changing of the head gasket to the different type non goo gasket ..seems to have done it so far ...I got on it hard today ..bike was really running fast ...at the limit of the clutch ability to handle it all ...speedo needle seems to rise as fast as I’ve seen any oldwing speedo rise ..supercharged or whatever ...one day I’ll get this bike good enough to go to the strip safely ..I’m super confident it will run very well ..there just isnt any bad spots all....very pleased

 

[DaveKamp]

Good deal, Joe. So... based on your reference above, is your clutch slipping at some point?

 

[joedrum]

The 84 1200 motor gearing and when coupled with the 1200 final drive is as tall as it gets for oldwing 4s ....under full power it’s a little less than instant lock up ....one thing for sure as I’ve said before power is at its highest level that the package can handle .....so far the important part is the cooling system seems to be operating perfectly....

 

[dan filipi]

Just a couple fast launches is enough to make the clutch beg for mercy anyway.
Such a heavy bike.

 

[mcgovern61]

dan filipi » Tue Nov 26, 2019 8:40 am[/url]":1h56hn6s]
Just a couple fast launches is enough to make the clutch beg for mercy anyway.
Such a heavy bike.

Mine begs for mercy just starting out at a stop light carrying me on her back! :smilie_happy: :smilie_happy:

 

[desertrefugee]

I'll be doing my third CBX clutch soon. I've owned it a year and a half. Going rogue on this one. And easier on the launches for a while.

 

[Ansimp]

desertrefugee » Wed Nov 27, 2019 12:53 am[/url]":xhh7jtpm]
I'll be doing my third CBX clutch soon. I've owned it a year and a half. Going rogue on this one. And easier on the launches for a while.

What clutches have you been using Darrell? It sounds like you may have a tolerance issue causing them to fail prematurely. :doh:

 

[joedrum]

Yah ...Tony ..I was thinking wow also ..seems like a lot of clutch problems ....even for a CBX ,....well I’ve never had much clutch problems with oldwings ...the1200 clutch is the best of the oldwing 4s rode today for about 50 miles things really went well ....will check plugs tomorrow ...and the cooling system hasn’t been a problem at all