Oldwing starts no more

[Rednaxs60]

You're welcome. Enjoy. Cheers

 

[Ansimp]

Great job! :good:

 

[JoeBarTeam]

Hi Oldwing-fans

did the test ride today.

with all consumers (without any 0.1-0.2v more)
idle 12.9v
1000rpm 13.3v
above 1200 rpm 14.4v
once and just for 2 seconds at 3000rpm 15.5v.

i think i won this battle thank you for helping.

greez
Joebarteam

 

[D-50Dave]

WooHoo!! :Egyptian:

 

[JoeBarTeam]

Hi Oldwing-Fans
After 2000 kms with the canadian RR the charging behavior stays as described last june. Any changes seen 'till today. Just thinking about making the charging fix or modification with a relay to be sure it doesn't show any volts over 15 like it sometimes does. i'm afraid no to do it and getting issues in the future with hot wires or alternator burning.
If i think right i should connect the black/light green wire (sense wire) to the relay #87 and from relay #85 back to the black/light green wire that goes to the ignition. Then a 12 ga wire from the relay #85 to - bat and #30 to + bat with a 30a fuse in between.
I've seen this kind of fix in several forums and it seems to work right so i expect in my case.
Just in case i am wrong or i forget something important, please tell me about.
Thanks.
greez
joebarteam

 

[joedrum]

Hmmmmm ....

 

[Rednaxs60]

Xavier - Good to hear that the Canadian connection is still working for you. Have read what you propose and have a slightly different take on what you want to do and here it is.

Your connections are not correct. You would connect the sense wire from the electrical system to pin #30 and pin #87 to the RR. The +12 VDC to pin #86 and pin #85 to ground.

Here is a mod done by one of the forum members and it does change the system so that the sense wire sees what the RR output is instead of what the electrical system is doing – much like the one wire alternator setup. It provides the RR with a truer electrical system voltage requirement than the stock OEM setup. You do not have to make any modification at the starter solenoid for this mod to work well:

You will notice that the wire going to the starter solenoid from the RR does not connect to any other wire. For the 1200, there is a join/bond between the red/white wire and the red wire from the starter solenoid as shown in this schematic:

What you are proposing does not change the charging system a whole lot.

Here's my take on what you want to do. You want the RR to see the true system voltage/amperage so that you have a more consistent voltage in the 14.2 VDC range. The electrical sense wire that is connected to the RR at present comes from the ignition switch via a few other electrical items that use power from this sense wire. The sense wire connection at the RR is at the end of the line and there could be a significant voltage drop across this wire.

The control circuit of the RR has a reference voltage of approximately 14.2 VDC. The control circuit of the RR is in parallel with the RR output and when it samples the RR output and the voltage is higher than the 14.2 VDC it shunts voltage to ground. When the voltage is lower than 14.2 VDC it reduces the shunting of voltage to ground.

Since the voltage in the system represented on the OEM sense wire will never be at or above 14.2 VDC, the RR output will always be in excess of 14.2 VDC. I submit that there is probably at least a 1 VDC drop across this sense wire. Using this as a basis, the RR sees an electrical system voltage of 13.2 VDC on a continuous basis and the RR output so the RR output will be 14.2 VDC plus 1 VDC for an output of 15.2 VDC – pure math.

The mod above changes the sense wire voltage to what is being output from the RR. You want the RR to maintain a steady 14.2 VDC output. With this mod, if the RR voltage rises above 14.2 VDC, the RR sense wire transmits this to the RR comparator circuit and the RR output is reduced, conversely when the RR voltage drops below 14.2 VDC the RR output will be increased.

The mod above is similar to what the vintage auto industry does when a vintage car is rewired.

Having mentioned the above I would recommend a look at this mod and go from there.

The next best thing would be to install a series RR - I mention series and not MOSFET because a MOSFET is an electronic component used in the circuitry of the RR. It is where the control element is located in the RR that is the issue and makes the RR a series or shunt RR. I have already shown a shunt RR comparator circuit above where the control element is in parallel with the RR output. The series RR control element is in line with the RR output:

The above mentioned mod is in essence a poor man's series RR mod, but a good one.

One last caveat, the drawings and schematics are not my doing, used from the net and forum thread(s), and I do appreciate the effort that was put into making them so that I am able to understand the issue(s) that I use them for.

Just MHO and thinking out loud.

Cheers

 

[JoeBarTeam]

Hi Ernest,

Thank you very much for your explanations.

I first thought to do it the way the picture shows.

The wire coming out of the RR is the sense wire (black/light green).
With this wiring I would only see how is the voltage at the battery and that could be less than the RR voltage as you write.
You are right and I will wire it the way you propose and tell you how it does work.

I hope this will reduce the system voltage to the point nothing will get to hot,
at least down to 14.2 volts and I also hope not to have to change again the RR,
this time to a series RR, then the one it is inside is #4 and works fine untill now.

Greez
Xavier

 

[FlipFlop]

I know the 1977 if you disconnect the stock VR out of the system the voltage will skyrocket. I removed the plug soldered and done the connections just like we do on so many different connections with heat shrink etc. and have had only minor fluctuations on voltage. But mine is a 1977 though with a stock shunt type VR.

 

[Rednaxs60]

Years ago, Honda did exactly what you are planning to do. The battery is a representation of the electrical system as a whole in that it will show an electrical system voltage; however, it is not just voltage that is of interest.

The issue with the electrical system is the electrical system amperage. It is amperage that determines the system voltage and how the RR needs to react.

The battery does three things when installed. The battery is for starting the engine, providing supplemental power when the engine alternator system is not producing enough power to operate the electrical system, and to absorb spikes, etc during motorcycle operation.

For #1 - engine starting, once the engine is started and the battery is replenished to 100% state of charge, the battery is a minor load to the electrical system and accepts a trickle charge from the electrical system of say 2 amps. You will notice that most motorcycle AGM batteries have the charging ratings on them, and this is for a reason, battery health. The Battery Tenders are designed to facilitate this as well. This is also why I am not a fan of using the battery as a distribution centre.

The second aspect f providing supplemental power is expected to be for a short duration, after which the battery is replenished and it becomes a minor load to the electrical system accepting a trickle charge.

The third aspect happens on a regular basis in some form or another, but we never notice it.

Getting back to amperage and voltage. Voltage is the electrical pressure in the electrical system and the RR is designed to meet this requirement based on the flow of electrical current - amperage - in the electrical system. As I have explained above, the battery is seeing amperage of approximately 2 amps so the voltage fluctuation at the battery so there is not a lot of change at the battery.

Using this schematic:

the point where the wires are bonded together is the key element in the system. For engine and motorcycle starting there is a huge outflow of power from the battery to the electrical system because the battery is the source of power for starting. Once the engine is started and the motorcycle is operating, and with power being produced by the engine alternator system in excess of 12.6 VDC, the current flow from where the wires are bonded together is to the battery at an ever decreasing rate as the battery returns to a 100% state of charge. The remainder of the power requirement for the electrical system flows to the motorcycle electrical system through the ignition switch.

If you were to determine the electrical power requirements based on amps, you would notice that at the point where the wires are bonded together, there is approximately 2 amps flowing to the battery, and the remainder flows to the ignition switch. If your bike requires say 15 amps to operate, there would be 13 amps flowing to the ignition switch.

Using this analogy, if there was an electrical load increase of say 2 amps (GPS and cell phone are attached to the system), there would still only be 2 amps flowing to the battery, but 15 amps needed to flow through the ignition switch. If you connect heated clothing this increase could be 8 amps, in this regard there would still only be 2 amps flowing to the battery, and 21 amps flowing through the ignition switch.

The electrical system voltage change if there is one will be felt at the battery, but the battery is controlling the current - amperage - flowing to it, not the electrical system so the electrical system voltage represented at the battery should remain fairly stable, not a lot of electrical current - amperage - change. You can see that there is a lot of change on the other side of the equation through the ignition switch depending how the additional accessories are cionnected into the system.

So having mentioned the above and IMHO I would still recommend a mod such as this:

When thinking of changes and such to the electrical system, we have to think in amperage not voltage. Never heard of a person wanting an alternator that had an output greater than 14.2 VDC, but we are always looking at the amperage output.

Just a few more thoughts, and as always, just my opinion.

Cheers

 

[JoeBarTeam]

Hi Ernest
I have no problem to understand the left side of your picture with the RR wiring and the additional relay.
My problem is to be able to understand the right side.
The starter relay in your picture seems to loose two connections. I think one of them is the wiring to the ignition switch and the other from the RR. Both go to the 30 amp fuse and then to bat.
Does this mod change fonctionnality of the starter relay?
What does this mod change at all? What is the idea to do it?
greez
xavier

 

[joedrum]

I’d like to know the answer to ? Above also

 

[Rednaxs60]

The right side of the illustration does not need to be touched - no change at the starter solenoid is required.

The reality is that you only need one wire either the red or the red/white wire connected at the starter solenoid because the red and red/white wires are joined/bonded together in the wiring harness. I have only one 10 gauge wire connected from the power bar to the starter solenoid, more than sufficient considering the electrical power flows to the electrical system or to the battery through a 30 amp fuse.

Here's a test to do. Disconnect the red wire from the starter solenoid, start the engine/bike and check the voltage at the battery. Shut off the bike, reconnect the red wire and disconnect the red/white wire. Do the same test. Results should be identical. The reason for this is because these wires are joined/bonded together in the wiring harness. The purpose of these wires is to provide power to the electrical system on start and to replenish the battery after start. One wire would have been sufficient from the connection where the red and red/white wires are joined/bonded, Honda uses the two.

After the test reconnect the wire(s).

The wire you disconnect will be live so protect it from grounding, would not be pretty.

The change on the right side of the illustration does exactly what I have mentioned above, no need to make any change at the starter solenoid.

Let me know how it goes, especially if the above does not work.