Oldwing starts no more

[JoeBarTeam]

hi ernest,
time's passing by, the spring's come and i can ride my bikes nearly every day with our actual weather. nice thing. my MBS was so strong i now have 3 bikes in the garage
i buyed a "brand new" yamaha fj600 from 1988 with tons of work to do. i've already started with.

about my oldwing and the charging issue, nothing's changed since last time i wrote in here. as already written, i've done lots of checks and reps. now i can say there is no wire in a bad shape, they are all ok, cleaned, proofed and fonctionning. but my reg still doesn't charge enough when a consumer like the oem positions lamps are on. the voltage drop goes from 13,8-14,4 down to 11,8 volts and the bat looses 1 volt per hour riding this way. it's a question of time untill the bikes stays.
what if the reg just has to less output? how can i measure for sure how many amps the reg gives? should this be the case, then i'll have to try a 4th reg.
greez
joebarteam

 

[Ansimp]

You need to fully test the stator and if it tests ok then you can replace the RR which I would recommend using a Mofset style unit.

 

[FlipFlop]

Or... Play with setting up that altnator mod.

I know I am tempted to do that myself.

 

[desertrefugee]

I had a 1200 that I dearly loved. But, during my possession, it also suffered from stator failure - and the typical "yellow wire connector" overheating was not in evidence. I opted to go with the Poorboy external alternator conversion. It was, without a doubt, the best thing I ever did to that bike. Not only did it address the failure mode, it provided more than adequate charging capacity and it insured that future charging issues (now far, far less likely) would be easily addressable pretty much anywhere (auto parts store off-the-shelf) and on the side of the road.

This process has been documented extensively all over the internet and here, as well. I do have comprehensive photos of my 1200 conversion, if needed for reference. I highly recommend it for dressed bikes. Alternator is not even visible.

 

[JoeBarTeam]

You need to fully test the stator and if it tests ok then you can replace the RR which I would recommend using a Mofset style unit.

all the stator tests i've done gave a perfect shape of it. i get the right voltage as described in the manuals.
this means the stator works as it should. the 3 yellow wires are also ok, the connection with the well known burn problem is new and the 30 amps dog bone is gone.
the reg gets the required power and it works right as long the consumers are off. normally, a reg has to regulate charging in dependence of the needs and this is the point. i think the reg regulates badly with consumers because it's out of order or it gets a bad signal (like a bad sense)= from where ever and stops charging.
that's why i would like to know how to test right the reg to be sure it's a reg issue or a signal issue. i suppose i should see how many amps the reg gives with and without consumer but i don't know how to do it exactly.
greez
joebarteam

 

[desertrefugee]

You could pull individual fuses to major drains. Headlight is the big one. Tails, etc. less so. Perhaps it's also possible that unplugging the instruments might show some slight increase in available power.

 

[slabghost]

Sense wire. Is it possible it's connected to the wrong portion of the harness? It should sense the consumer load and compensate.

 

[JoeBarTeam]

Hi Oldwing fans

Rednaxs60 told in #100 the black wire is the sense wire.

a series reg gets the sense over the red/white wires, a shunt reg gets the sense over the black wire.

He wrote my reg is a shunt reg and not a series reg.

the black oem wire in the harness ends at the connection to the reg. it is not connected with the reg.

this would mean, if i understand it right, that my reg needs the sense wire to work properly. but how can i do it? i have no free wires from the reg. the sense wire is live on ignition.

maybe connecting the red wire from the reg not only to both red/white wires but also to the black wire?
greez
joebarteam

 

[Rednaxs60]

Went back and read through some posts. You can test a shunt RR but not a series RR. Even Jack of Roadster cannot test a series RR that is not connected in a circuit.

The new RR that you have may be a shunt RR but senses the voltage through the red wires of the RR. Can you post a picture of the RR and wiring so we can get a look at it.

I have an RR that is good and tested IAW as well. It is off my '85 LTD here in northern Ontario that I have since put the external alternator on. Send me your address and I will send to you. If it works on your bike and it should, cost is postage - if not no foul - use it for a fishing weight.

Another fellow that I correspond with has an '85 LTD and is upgrading his RR to a series RR. He has tried the SH847 and the Compufire 55403. The Compufire doesn't seem to want to cooperate and work with his bike's electrical system, but the SH847 does. He has had some trial and error as to where to hook up the RR.

What you can try is to hook the RR red and black wire up to the battery and see what the system does. Next I would move the RR red wire to the battery terminal of the starter solenoid - not a fan of connecting wires to the positive terminal of the battery. If this works with your electrical system keep the RR red wire on the starter solenoid. The only other place to connect the RR red wire is to the junction where the red and red/white wires are connected together in the wiring harness.

Let us know what happens.

Cheers

 

[JoeBarTeam]

Hi Ernest,
you got a PM for the details about your 85 ltd RR.
i'll start with the wiring tests and write the results.
greez
joebarteam

 

[JoeBarTeam]

Hi Oldwing Fans

I made 2 Pictures

Greez

Joebarteam

 

[JoeBarTeam]

Hi Oldwing Fans
The work is done. First I took measures with the multimeter at the solenoid starter (STAR) and at the connection RR to harness (HAR). The mounted voltmeter goes through the fuse box (BOX). The results are as follow:
Without consumers 2000 Rpm:
BOX 13.3 v
HAR 13.3 v
STAR 13.3 v
With consumers on (position lamps = 5 watt at the front and 5 watt at the back) at 2000 rpm:
BOX 11.8 v
HAR 12.5 v
STAR 12.5 v
With all consumers on at 2000 rpm:
BOX 11.8 v
HAR 12.5 v
STAR 12.5 v
Then i unwired the 2 red/white RR wires, once to the + battery and after taking measures i wired to the starter solenoid and took measures.
I get the same results like above with and without consumers.
I touched the RR, the yellow wires and the red/white wires for temperature differences but didn't notice any heat.
The fuse box shows 0.7 volts less than the solenoid starter when the voltage drop occurs.
greez
joebarteam

 

[Rednaxs60]

Thanks for the pictures. In the second one - why is there two sets of connectors for the RR? Should only be one connector for the RR to the electrical system. Interesting setup.

The sensing for this RR is through the RR output red wire.

 

[julimike54]

Is the connection to the fuse box not a good one, due to that voltage drop? I don't know how that would change what's going on but seems a little excessive?

 

[JoeBarTeam]

Hi Oldwing fans,

In the Honda manual chapter 20-3 you can see the picture #2, fairing removal, (picture attached) with the same connectors above the RR like them at my Oldwing.
This says to me, it has to be an original thing (I hope so).

It is curios that the 2nd connector the same wire colours has as the 1st connector. I didn’t pay attention before. They both meet partially in the harness and in the black box behind the RR (picture attached) that has the label Panasonic at the rear (picture attached). Panasonic sounds something to do with the radio for me.

When the sensing is through the RR output red wire and oem side the sensing is the black wire, would this mean for sensing I should wire them together?
The RR output red wire is already connected to the 2 red/white oem wires.
What would happen if I connect the oem black to the connection RR output red wire / 2x red/white wires? Would it start to sense right or something else would get out of order?

The connection to the fuse box is another thing I would like to test but I don’t know exactly how I could do it. The wires out of the fuse box disappear in the harness and for a visual check I should undo the tube. I think it must be a measure method to see if it’s ok or not.
The voltage difference between fuse box and the battery exists only by voltage drop.
But even if I had not the voltage difference between the fuse box and the battery by voltage drop, I would have the voltage drop with consumers, then I measured the drop also with the auxiliary driving lamps connected directly to the battery and connected to the starter solenoid. So it doesn’t change the drop where the consumers are connected and how much power they need. I have the same drop with a consumer taking 10 watts or with all consumers together.
Greez
Joebarteam

 

[Rednaxs60]

Xavier - these new style RR with only a negative and positive connection to the electrical system is confounding me, but I'm always open to learning something new.

Two things. My friends Triumph Rocket has the series RR with the new technology and the electrical system setup is that power comes out of the RR and splits - goes to the battery through a 30 amp fuse and 12 gauge wire and goes to the fuse block through another set of in line fuses. There is no connection to the electrical system in the wiring harness like we have on the GW. His RR connection was the same as the SH847 so we tried it in his bike and it was plug and play, system voltage was solid at 14.0 VDC.

Another fellow I correspond with just installed the SH847 series RR I sent him on his '85 LTD. He also has the Compufire 55403 series RR on his other bike since 2012 and it is working well. He tried both the SH847 and the Compufire on the '85 LTD by connecting these in the wiring harness as per the older OEM RR but this did not work. The RR would not output the required voltage. He connected theses units to the battery and the battery terminal of the starter solenoid and both worked. He has since installed the SH847 permanently connected to the battery terminal of the starter solenoid and it is working well maintaining 14.0 VDC +/- 1 volt at all RPMs.

Don't understand exactly why it will not work when connected into the electrical system as per the original design.

With these in mind, would recommend connecting your RR to the battery terminal of the starter solenoid and let us know how it works. You will have to cap off the red/white wires as these will be live at all times because of how theses are connected into the system.

Cheers

 

[Rednaxs60]

Thinking about your install again. There is no reason the RR should not work connected into the system as per the OEM RR install. Since it is not working as you would expect, I'm curious as to whether the dual red/white wires that you have connected to are causing an issue with the RR sensing a good voltage signal. You may want to try disconnecting one of these wires and see what the RR does regarding voltage. Won't hurt to try before you change the connection closer to the battery.

Cheers

 

[JoeBarTeam]

hi Ernest,
i will try disconnecting one red/white wire at the time and see what the multimeter tells. this is a new try for me. i will inform you.
connecting the RR directly to the starter solenoid and to earth was the second try i've done and this didn't work. first i had it directly to the battery as recomended by the vendor.
when i get the RR you are sending me, i will see if this changes anything what i really hope.
what do you think about trying to connect the sense wire to the red/white wires? could this go and sense as it should or make a new issue?
greez
joebarteam

 

[JoeBarTeam]

hi Oldwing fans
this was an interesting try taking a red/white wire at the connector off. it doesn't matter the red/white wire i disconnected, it doesn't charge anymore. i also tried connecting the black wire to one of the red/white wires to see if it senses this way. no way! no charge at all and the ignition stays live. this means no need to turn the key on to start the bike. don't do it
while testing, the red/white wires at the connector and the 3 yellow wires at the connector on the left side of the battery were really hot.
a new thought: with half the wires, charging gets lost. charging needs good wires. could it be that the oem wires are not enough in combination with this RR and consumers on?
greez
joebarteam

 

[JoeBarTeam]

Hi Ernest
You saved me! Really, you saved me. I got your parcel with the RR and connected it to test it. all consumers on at idle 12.9v, at 1100 rpm 13.3, from 1200rpm on and above 14.4v on the voltmeter. Without consumers 0.1 to 0.2v more. finally a RR that works. It was a long way to the success. Tomorrow, I will connect the wires as the should be and ride the oldwing to see if also riding is ok.
Thanks again.
Greez
Joebarteam