Oldwing starts no more

[JoeBarTeam]

i see your point of view and i will try it the way you tell me.

is it important how additional lights are wired when the voltage drop occurs when only the oem lights are on?
i even took away the fuse of the driving lights at this test.

the running leds are connected at a wire of the oem running lights with a switch in between and i did the same with the brake leds to the oem brake lights.

 

[Ansimp]

Just use relays from the battery and you will reduce the load through the existing wiring and junctions. Your other potential current/voltage issue will be on the return side (negative/earth) connections.

 

[JoeBarTeam]

Just use relays from the battery and you will reduce the load through the existing wiring and junctions. Your other potential current/voltage issue will be on the return side (negative/earth) connections.

hi,
i'm still working on these mods. my garage has outside temperature. we got snow. it makes working hard and my fingers do not properly.

 

[JoeBarTeam]

hi,
i have all accessories rewired. instead of the battery connections i have them connected to the oem acc. fuse with 10A. the accessories are the driving lights, the running and stop leds and 2 cigarette lighters for the gps and the voltmeter. i think at max. some 35 watts all at the same time. the lights have also a relay and each a separate fuse.
i have made the leakage test as descripted in haynes. the ammeter shows 0 A. max 0.5 mA is ok. the voltmeter shows battery voltage.
i still have to do the charging test with and without lights and other consumers to see if charging is ok. i hope tomorrow. will see

 

[joedrum]

Sounds good opcorn:

 

[JoeBarTeam]

hi,
the charging test is done. as long as i don't use any kind of lights i get 14.2 volts at 3000 u/min and about 13.6 volts at idle as expected (battery voltage is 12.6). the voltmeter and the gps over the cigarette lighters are on doing this test.
when i make the oem running lights or the driving lamps or i brake then the voltmeter drops to 12.0 volts and stays there untill they are off again. the unwiring from the battery to the acc. fuse has not change these results.
i still could change wiring from the acc. fuse to the red/white power junction but i think this will not change the behavior the oem running lights have because i wouldn't change them to the power junction. if i had a difference in charging between oem lights and acc. lights, then i would do this.

i think i have to check the return side (negative/earth) from the lights but how to do it right?

i need a helping thought

tnx
joebarteam

 

[desertrefugee]

For sure it now sounds like a grounding issue. As folks will be quick to note, the main grounding cable from the battery to the frame is inside the rear upper motor mount on the left side (clutch side) of the bike. That would be a good place to start and is often neglected (like almost always neglected). Since you have multiple symptoms, this main ground is highly suspect. If your issues were more specific, say to a single circuit, grouding to that individual circuit would be more likely. So, try removing, cleaning and re-installing that negative battery cable to the frame and see what happens. I would carefully inspect terminations for corrosion while at it.

EDIT: I believe there is also a common point ground inside the headlight shell. This could cause your symptom, but I would think a less likely culprit. If the main ground produces no joy, it'll be time to go inside the shell. The main ground is an easy first step - and should probably be tended anyway.

 

[JoeBarTeam]

thnx desertrefugee
i'll check this first.
i was thinking about the common place for the oem running lights and my driving lamps and this would be the fuse block.
i'll check this too.

 

[Rednaxs60]

Your bike has two grounds for the entire electrical system. The main is as desertrefugee has mentioned is the battery to the engine.

There is one additional just forward of the regulator on the left side frame above the coils. This one is a small boss welded to the frame and there is one ground wire attached. This is the single ground point for the entire electrical wiring harness. When you look at the service manuals and ground points are indicated, these ground points are where the ground wires are joined together in the wiring harness. The wire attached to this grounding boss is a single 16/18 GA, not substantial enough in my mind.

I have been into my headlight several times and there is no grounding point in the headlight area.

Locate the ground boss just forward of the regulator and clean that area.

For the driving lights, I would install a ground bus away from the battery - connect an 8 GA wire from the battery negative terminal to the ground bus and connect all new non-OEM ground wires to it. Allows for expansion later on. There is room under the seat to mount a new ground bus.

Another possibility is that you are exceeding the capacity of the alternator. The alternator provides full 350 watts at approximately 5000 RPM. At max power you have approximately 25 amps to play with. At 3000 RPM you have a bit less say 300 watts at 20 amps (WAG), and so on.

The voltage is indicative of a good charging system, but it does not tell you what the system current requirements are. In this regard, you could be needing say 23 amps, but the charging system is only putting out 20 amps, and the voltage will drop accordingly.

Even with battery power supplementing the electrical system, the voltage will still be low.

Just a few more thoughts.

 

[JoeBarTeam]

hi,
i don't think it's an exciding problem when the voltage drop occurs just by starting the oem running lights. there are 2x 5 watts in the rear, 1x 5 watts in the front, the instrument lights and the voltmeter. let's say max. 20 watts plus the voltage the engine needs to run. the voltage drops also by turn-light, braking and turning on accessory lights.
i have cleaned both earth wires. the one near the regulator and the one from the battery at the frame. they weren't really bad but now they are clean.
where is the next connection from the earth wire near the regulator? i would like to clean this too.
after this i'll check the fuse box and unwire my accessories to be sure if they are involved or not.

 

[Rednaxs60]

There are only two grounds and sounds like you have cleaned both. The ground in front of the regulator is a welded boss to the frame.

There is a fellow over on Steve Saunders forum, Rudy, who has a good write up on what he does whenever he gets a new used bike. He takes it back to the original configuration by removing all add-ons. He then puts together an electrical plan to connect everything back up. This way he knows exactly where everything is connected. Here's his write up on this. I agree with almost everything, but best practices have evolved a bit. This site is for a 1500 with an external alternator, but the premise is sound. It's a good read.
https://www.goldwingtech.info/auxwiring/ ... iring.html

I agree it is not an exciting problem because there is no external excitation to the alternator. The black wire to the regulator only provides power to the regulator to turn it on.

The voltage drop is directly related to the ability of the alternator to provide enough power to support the load requirement(s) at any given RPM.

Just a few thoughts.

Cheers

 

[julimike54]

Could it be one of the factory ground junctions being insecure? Not speaking of attachment points.

 

[JoeBarTeam]

hi,

as i got my oldwing it was electricaly oem, that means all changes have been done by me and i know exactly where the changes are and have to check them all, one after the other but first i'll unwire my accessories. this will show me if the issue comes from this side or not. i expect to find the issue in the oem wires.
i'm not sure if earth is really ok. i have to follow the wires and check many contacts.

it is an interesting reading and a good strategy for starting well with electrical accessories. it's quite incredible how long the item list can be with all the accessories that may be installed. my list is not that long. at the front i have installed 8 led running lights, a pair of driving lights and two cigarette lighters for the gps and the voltmeter. at the back i have 7 led running lights and 4 brake led lights. of course, i have relays and additional fuses. that's all i have done in electrics at my oldwing. it is quite a simple thing in comparation with other installations i have seen at many goldwings who have a never ending list of lights, cd changer, many big loudspeakers, big horns and so on.

 

[JoeBarTeam]

i found the issue! it wasn't really one. the voltmeter shows the right voltage as long i don't have consumers. with consumers there is a difference between the voltmeter at the acc. fuse and the multimeter at the battery. the first shows 11.9 volts and the other 12.7+.
if i had checked this before i would have done less work. all contacts are now clean, checked and i've learned many things about electrics.
it is charging the way it should. no issues anymore. i hope so.
no earth problems. everywhere 0.1 ohm or less. all consumers work properly. the ride season may start as soon the weather allows it.
many thanks to all of you. your help was awesome. i hope my "silly" found may help someone to get faster to a solution of a similar issue.
merry x-mas!

 

[joedrum]

I trip and stumble around on electrics every time I go there ....merry Christmas

 

[slabghost]

Congratulations!

 

[Rednaxs60]

Merry Xmas. Trust Santa was good to you. Congratulations on getting it ready.

Been working on my second '85 LTD. It is surprising my brother and I with how it is starting and running after a 3 1/2 year lay up. It is a stock bike with no add-ons whatsoever.

Checked stator and regulator and have them hooked up and the bike charges at 14.2ish at idle of 1060 RPM. All is good. Checking all the circuits. Horn doesn't work but that is probably the switch - no power at the horns. Also tried the 4 way flashers - just the two up front - have saddlebags off. When I put them on, they work but the power draw was significant. Dropped the dash voltmeter reading to 13.6 ish VDC - surprised me. Maybe LED lights are in order. Let it warm up to determine if the rad fan worked - came on in the 6 bar temp gauge range as does the one on my other '85.

Working on the various items to get it road worthy for a trip west to Victoria.

Will be looking into the voltage drop, but maybe that is how it should be. The voltage does not drop on my other '85. Another mystery like yours to investigate.

These bikes are great when operating well and sure do keep the mind busy.

Cheers

 

[JoeBarTeam]

13.6 doesn't seem to me to be a drop. wish you a nice trip with your dream bike. it's one of the bikes i would like to put into the garage.
time to enjoy our oldwings!

 

[JoeBarTeam]

Hi Ernest,

I’ve seen your post GL1200 Electrical System 101 in viewtopic.php?t=12703. You’re waiting for news from me. Now I’m getting back to the electric of my oldwing after an „intermezzo“ with the hardware of my FJ1200 that needed some maintenance like valve clearance and other small works.

First of all I’ve to inform you that all accessories I have put on my Oldwing are through the accessories fuse. Also the driving lamps are there. I think this should be all right with the thought all new wiring should be upstream of the power junction. The accessories fuse is upstream of the power junction, right?

There is nothing at the battery but the oem-wires. Not yet.

I’ll connect my voltmeter to the battery to see how it works. Now the voltmeter is also at the accessories fuse and I get a difference in readings between this voltmeter and a multimeter at the battery. That’s why.

The mosfet regulator is still wired the way you recommended me. All wires to the oem connection where the old regulator was hooked.
3 yellow wires to the 3 yellow wires.
The red wire to both red/white wires.
The black mosfet wire to both green wires.

I’ve only one oem-wire that is unwired because the mosfet regulator has no more wires. It is the black one. “The black wire to the regulator only provides power to the regulator to turn it on”.

Now I’m not sure my issues are gone then yesterday I rode 30 miles in about 1 hour with the oem-position lamps on and the charging behaviour was curious. No other consumers, no accessories. I had 12.8 volts at the multimeter before I started the engine and 12.3 volts when I stopped it after the 30 miles turn. I lost 0.5 volts during the ride.

I still see a drop in volts at the voltmeter (wired at acc. fuse) as soon as I have consumers like the positions lamps. Riding 50 mph changes readings from 13.9 (no lights) to 11.9 volts (positions lamps). The oem position lamps are one 5 watt at the front and one 5 watt rear. That’s all.

My 2 earth connections are cleaned and tested (ok).

I’ve to start my research again. Step by step and tell you what I get.

Greez

Joebarteam

 

[Rednaxs60]

Joe - good report. I've done more research and have to take my lumps regarding the black wire from the OEM wire harness. It is actually the sense wire from the electrical system after the ignition switch. Many apologies. Found this in the 1985 electrical troubleshooting manual pages 156/157. My post #19 is correct.

The black/green striped wire out of the wire harness is the old sense wire not used with the RR you have installed. Tape it off as it is live when the key is on. It makes a good trigger wire for relay operation if you install some.

The voltage drop I see when I turn on the signals is at low RPMs. When the bike is operating in the higher RPMs say above 2500, there is no drop in the voltmeter reading. I think the VDC drop I see is because of the turn signal relay.

The RR you have installed uses the RR output wire to sense the electrical system voltage. There will probably be a lag between voltage drop when loads are added and when the RR picks up this reduced system voltage.

Here is a good thread regarding shunt and series RR - very good read: https://www.triumphrat.net/speed-triple- ... grade.html

Another issue you may still have is the RR installed is a shunt type RR. The FH012AA has MOSFET components, and is now superseded by the FH020. The RR you have installed is still a shunt type RR.

There are some series RR on the market that are reasonable. The series RR from Roadster cycle SH847 - most expensive, has good reviews and I have one that I intend to install on my second '85 LTD, the Compufire 55403, and the Shindengen SH775. Appears the series designation from Shindengen is "SH". The "FH" is for a shunt type RR.

The SH775 is supposed to be the series RR replacement for the FH012AA and FH020AA shunt type RR. The SH775 is also the least expensive at $145.00 CDN. Ships out of Germany. https://www.ebay.ca/itm/Regulator-SH775 ... ow&vxp=mtr

Here is a graph showing the difference between a shunt and series RR rotor/stator assembly current output. Seems to me the series RR wins:

More info to assimilate.

Cheers