Hooch cooling system pushing out water from cap

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One thing to do, is get a pressure-test-cap, and fit a pressure GAUGE to it. Don't add pressure, just observe. Take it for a ride, and get on it hard, watch that gauge. If the pressure comes up when you're giving the throttle hell, you have a combustion pressure leak... a bad gasket, or a cracked head or block, somewhere. The pressure you're seeing in this circumstance is not from heat, it's actual combustion gases leaking into the cooling system, and 'inflating' the hoses, radiator, etc.

I got a 455 Buick with exactly that happening on #6 cylinder right now... dunno if it's bad gasket or cracked head, or both, but I'm building another 455 to slip into it's place just for that reason.
 
You got these head baskets from Saber Cycle. Hmm. The set I used from them years ago lasted me under 1,000 miles before the left head started leaking. Possible they are made different now, but those I used had a rather hard metal face, the Honda gaskets are softer metal, I think will conform to the surfaces better. All I know is I’ve never had a Honda head gasket blow on me.
 
If the Honda gasket doesn't work, perhaps make your own copper head gasket?

Some people report success doing that for other vehicles. Should be easy enough to do with just a few tools.
 
Joe tried doing copper gaskets. Didn’t work out for him.

I recall some time ago I sent Joe a pair of Honda gaskets I had.
That was the set before he let a belt break. :rant:
Those Honda gaskets held fine. They were replaced with Saber gaskets.
 
Hmmmmmm ....I’m sure there different quality of goo gaskets...I’m thinking dan is right ...those gaskets did last awhile ....I don’t think anyone has copper gaskets in a oldwing ...there would have to be some serious modding for copper to work ....the heads bolts are just to far away ...with the cost of the Honda gaskets I don’t see me fixing this soon ...
 
My 6 cylinder KL flathead engine has a copper gasket, but it is made for the engine and does having those sealing rings at each cylinder.

IMG_0406.JPG
 
To save some money, if only one head gasket is leaking, could you just remove the spark plugs and pressurize the cylinder to see what side needs a new head gasket?
 
[url=https://www.classicgoldwings.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=214113#p214113:2xmd74r3 said:
saganaga » Fri Nov 01, 2019 5:23 pm[/url]":2xmd74r3]
To save some money, if only one head gasket is leaking, could you just remove the spark plugs and pressurize the cylinder to see what side needs a new head gasket?
Remember, just compression (with no combustion) pressure should be ~175 psi.

I just wonder if the head and block are perfectly flat. My '75 engine had a seriously warped head/block interface (both were out). The head gaskets have metal rings to seal the cylinder to the head. They are formed over the rest of the gasket, I believe. Needs to have a good amount of pressure on them and as Joe said the head bolts are not ideally located to compress them. On an iron head, copper gaskets can easily be used and even re-used after annealing. Getting aluminum (the head) to compress copper is asking a bit, even annealed copper.
 
Yah it would be nice if the old wing block was set up as good as boat motor you have ..the top of the block is capped around the the cylinders above the water jackets ...the oldwings are stand alone cylinders and rely completely on the fire ring on the head gaskets ..sealing surface is like less than a 1/8” ...this makes it like the worse set up you can have ....

On my bike saganaga the intake runners are always cool ...but on is warmer I’m thinking this is the effected cylinder ...and will treat it that way ....for now ...I’ve got some bills I need to pay before I venture into the bike right now ...I spent some time and money trying to get in a music band that didn’t pan out ..so I need to recover from that ...
 
[url=https://classicgoldwings.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=214117#p214117:1819l9cz said:
joedrum » Today, 4:25 pm[/url]":1819l9cz]
On my bike saganaga the intake runners are always cool ...but on is warmer I’m thinking this is the effected cylinder ...and will treat it that way ....for now ...I’ve got some bills I need to pay before I venture into the bike right now ...I spent some time and money trying to get in a music band that didn’t pan out ..so I need to recover from that ...

If you need to make some cash quick, all I'm saying is that you don't need two kidneys.
 
[url=https://www.classicgoldwings.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=214121#p214121:235czeff said:
saganaga » Sat Nov 02, 2019 1:52 pm[/url]":235czeff]
[url=https://classicgoldwings.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=214117#p214117:235czeff said:
joedrum » Today, 4:25 pm[/url]":235czeff]
On my bike saganaga the intake runners are always cool ...but on is warmer I’m thinking this is the effected cylinder ...and will treat it that way ....for now ...I’ve got some bills I need to pay before I venture into the bike right now ...I spent some time and money trying to get in a music band that didn’t pan out ..so I need to recover from that ...

If you need to make some cash quick, all I'm saying is that you don't need two kidneys.
Unless they have led a hard life and are running on half efficiency! :smilie_happy: :smilie_happy:
 
you don't need two kidneys.

Wow... THIS neighborhood went downhill FAST... :smilie_happy:

Joe... just a few points here:

While there is a relationship between fuel energy and output power, one cannot assume that more power automatically equates to 'more heat' in any given context... meaning...

Just because an engine can develop more power, doesn't mean it is harboring more heat than any other engine.

By that: The engine's rate of heat transfer to the cooling system is an independant factor.

An Onan NHCV flat twin of 17hp will be hotter, and disspiate much more energy, and be hotter than a 27hp Kohler Command V... at basically any given load point... First, because the 27hp will never be working hard to match the 17... and second, because the Command V has a better-breathing cylinder head, that has better cooling airflow.

You may have a lot of power on-tap, but you're not generating heat 'just because' it's output is higher. If you want to illustrate it's capacity to generate power and heat, put it on a static-load chassis dyno (not an inertial dyno), and set the load high, put the bike in 3rd gear, open the throttle, and load the dyno to hold engine at 4500rpm for an hour. THEN you'll have an idea of what kind of waste heat it really generates, compared to a road-ride.

Hooch's problem is not temperature... it's SEAL. When you start melting pistons and dropping valves, you're dealing with heat.

You either have an improper gasket seal (which is lack of conformal surfaces, or insufficient gasket design/material, or improper bolt torque), or you have a casting which is cracked or otherwise leaking.

Since it happens most at high load, it is compression pressure, leaking into the cooling jacket.

Remember: Engine block seal is a DYNAMIC thing...it changes based on block temperature. An engine that seals well when cold, sitting on the bench, is not the same as an engine that's spinning at 6400rpm, consuming 6 gallons per hour at 120mph... or at 4100rpm climbing a ten-mile 12% grade.

Head bolts aren't bolts. They're SPRINGS... and their tension changes based on temperature. Bolt threads aren't seal surfaces, and they're not smooth. Tighten two bolts with the same torque wrench, into the same block, and they will NOT present the exact same amount of force. Cylinder heads and block faces aren't flat at any temperature OTHER than the temperature you MILL them at... and even then, they're not flat... and they're not smooth. As a result of these factors, one can NEVER get exact bolt force, and when the engine temperature changes, so does the tension against the gasket.

My gut feeling says you have a simple case of leak around the fire ring of a gasket. Perhaps a re-torque will solve it, but compare the technique you used, with my technique, and consider wether your heads' seals may have reason to leak under extreme circumstances:

When I want a cylinder head to seal REALLY WELL:
- Clean the block holes. I start by digging any crud out of the bottom of the hole with a piece of wire. I prefer NOT to use a tap if at all possible, because it will cut the threads oversize, which I don't want. I'll take an extra head bolt, and wire brush the bejezzus out of it, then put a very SMALL amount of toothpaste on it, run it in, then back out, and then spray the hole out with carb cleaner and air nozzle...

- Clean the bolts or studs. Wire brush, turn them 'till they're beautiful.
- Clean out the head holes. I drop bolts in each one. Don't wanna drill them out, but no crud in them, and the bolt landing face needs to be clean and no big burrs.

- quality head gasket. There's absolutely no cost savings in a poorly-made gasket, ever... and it must fit RIGHT. The bore hole of the gasket must not protrude INTO the combustion chamber... the fire ring defends the gasket against flame, but having it protrude into the exhaust gases causes it to become a 'hot spot' that will cause preignition, and it'll erode under high load regardless, nullifying it's ability to contain compression pressure. (read that three times slowly).

- Flat, smooth mounting surfaces. A precision flat surface is important, and sometimes, hard to determine, but when you've had machine work done, they SHOULD have obtained flatness at shop temperature, during the cutting process.

[we interrupt this program for an aside note: When I'm making a precision part... say... a very close fitting rod in an air-bearing, or a piston in a brake cylinder... I will cut the part to rough shape, leaving it a few thousanths too large, and then shut the machine down, with part still in the collet, for the night, and come back tomorrow to re-measure and make my finish cuts. Why? Because all that rough work has caused not only the workpiece to warm up, it caused the collet, spindle, bearings, etc., all to warm up, and henceforth, my measurements, although correct, will be wrong when the part is at OPERATING TEMPERATURE. By allowing it to cool to shop temperature, I can be assured that the air-bearing of a 130,000rpm air-bearing cut to an OD of 1.8142 at 68F will fit inside a bore ID of 1.8146" at 68F, and have .0002" float distance under pressurized air...]

- Abide by the thread lubrication instructions. If a factory rebuild spec says torque bolts dry, then DON'T lube the bolts. If they say torque them WET, then apply lubricant.

(I work on engines like McGovern's Chris-Craft KL [marinized Hercules industrial]... and when I reassemble MY industrial and marine engines, I use teflon pipe thread sealant... because it lubricates, seals, and doesn't wash away under chemical attack... and in many cases, head bolts protrude into the water jacket, which means they're a pathway of opportunity for a leak...)

Once you torque a head, it needs to be retorqued. On my Buick 455s, I retorque them THREE TIMES... initially, then walk away for a day, come back, back 'em off an 1/8 turn, torque again, and next day, repeat. On flatheads, I torque them, then run the engine for 5 minutes, shut 'em down for two, and retorque them.... then run 'em for an hour, let 'em cool, and torque them again. Why?

When you torque a bolt, the bolt 'winds up' like a spring. The threads turn for SOME, but not ALL.

When you apply TENSION to a bolt, it stretches, like a spring. Sometimes it YIELDS (deforms). Some do, and some don't. Some head bolts (usually, newer than say... 1980) are DESIGNED to yield... in their design and metallurgy, heat treatment, etc., they STRETCH, so that they apply a predictable pressure as the engine expands and contracts. Imagine replacing a head bolt, with a longer bolt, a pair of washers, and a VALVE SPRING... you tighten the bolt 'till the valve spring is halfway compressed, and at that point, as the engine expands and contracts, that bolt and spring will ALWAYS place the same amount of pressure on the head. Because of this, when a manufacturer says 'use new bolts'... they mean USE NEW BOLTS.

Some engines use STUDS rather than bolts. A stud has a serious advantage over a bolt, namely... if the bolt HOLE is full of crud, or has an incompatable spot in the threads, a BOLT will reach it's torque value, but NOT apply the appropriate clamping force. Let's say the bolt hole is obstructed, and it stops before it even lands flush against the head... you may have 170ft-lbs on the bolt, and it's applying NO grip whatsoever. Next... a STUD is substantially less affected by shank friction as you torque the assembly. When you turn a bolt in a casting, the bolt's shank is contacting the hole. since the hole alignment cannot be 'perfect', there is some amount of contact between the bolt shank and the head... and then the head, which is in contact with the block, will bind. It might bind just a little, and it may bind a LOT, just depends on how tight the clearance is to start with, and how out-of-alignment it is. A stud encounters that friction while the head is slid over the studs, but once down, the nuts spin down, and apply their force to the head, with no additional drag from the fastener. Finally... a head BOLT never engages ALL of the block threads. A stud can thread all the way to the bottom (as long as it's threaded to full depth). A stud will never 'rip out' threads in a block... but a bolt certainly can. Finally, using studs means you can slip the gasket into position, and check it for proper location and alignment, then lower the head in place WITHOUT risking movement (and consequent damage) the the gasket while seating the castings. As a result, studs will generate a more consistent and higher-quality result all around.

Where engines have mix-and-match of studs and bolts, and sometimes, different length bolts, in different positions. it's of utmost importance that one get the studs and bolts in their proper locations.

When I'm assembling cylinder heads that are strictly bolted, I usually make at least TWO studs... I'll find some really long bolts, and cut the heads off... then chuck 'em in my cordless drill and wire brush them REALLY smooth... mebbie even dust them off with flapper-wheel a bit, and thread THOSE into the block, slide the gasket on, then the head... so that my extra-long-bolts are assembly guides for lining up everything nice... so I can see that the gasket is landing properly, that the head seats without skidding the gasket around, and once the head is down, I install most of the bolts, then remove my guide bolts, and install the final bolts.

It may seem a bit excessive, but I rarely have gasket problems with things that I assemble. When I DO have gasket problems, it's almost always a case of bad gasket.
 
Ok I’ll go through this the best I can ....power is heat ...there no way getting around that Period ....even people sweat when they work there body ...and yes heat transfer to cooling system is not a independent thing....if cooling doesn’t get rid of the heat things will fail ...most times it happens at the weakest link first ...and yes the tiny thin fire ring on these gaskets right next to the source of heat is weakest link ....in my life experiences I’ve been a hands on person with smart hands ..meaning I’m not stupid in most ways ...as for head gaskets that are never a solid piece of something..the goo it’s made out of could range from 0 to 100 ...and who knows ..in general I’m smart enough to know the gasket and motor set up on Gerry’s who knows how old motor ...is a much better set up than the oldwing is period ..just look at the pic and enlarge it’s totally visible.... threaded holes and bolts are just common sense ...retorque of heads so far from fire ring is very wishful thinking ..there are some that claim steel bolts stretch and have to be replaced ...on oldwings and that causes head gasket failure in aluminum block what a joke..bottom line is I’ve done a lot things farming ...being the most education on things ..but I’ve built everything had balance like cat ...to be what I am ...as far as what I am now ..I never expected to be infected by a man made war virus ...that took most of my life away ...but that’s life ... at least now after 30 plus yrs the military has come out and admitted it ...but when it comes to knowing what’s up ..Im rather good at knowing it ..and will figure this out to ...but as I said with the tractor story ..you turn something up in power ..it effects all other things ...
 
What I'm saying, Joe... is that your problem is NOT heat... it's pressure... and it's not cooling-system-pressure.

In post #8, Saga did an excellent job of engineering math of how HOT the engine coolant would have to be, to even START to challenge cap pressure. worst-case-scenario, the 16psi or so that it takes to pop that cap, is a fart in a hurricane compared to the 250+psi that occurs as Brake Mean Chamber Pressure of your engine. You're talking OVER TWO orders-of-magnitude of pressure.

You're seeing combustion pressures pushing past either a gasket, or through a crack in a casting.
 
I don't recall exactly what he was using before, but he was running earlier heads on a later block.

Joe- I did a BMEP calculation on the 455 Buick I'm building... with a 4.31 bore and 3.9 stroke, 9.35:1 compression ratio. Compression testing shows 135psi, and on the dyno, it's developing 506ft-lbs starting at 2300rpm. At that torque level, it's brake mean effective pressure is:

Crank leverage = 12/(3.9/2) = 6.15

(506*6.15) / (4.31/2)sq * 3.14 or 14.58sq in
3112lbs of force / 14.58 square inches of piston surface = 213 psi @ 90 degrees AFTER top dead center.

When burning in the cylinder, gas pressures from 45ATDC to 135ATDC constitute 70.7% of the effective transmitted torque, but because burn rate is not a linear function (the gas pressures of compression at the start end, and progressive expansion up to 90 ATDC) means the reciprocating piston engine's ACTUAL pressures rise to well over TWICE the calculated BMEP between TDC and 45 degrees.

I'm certain that your build is developing enough pressure to challenge the gasket. Well over 400PSI. Dan, Saga, and Jones have all suggested the same, and I'm certain it's for the same reason I have: Because it's a much greater force than heat.
 
If the motor was not burning gas and was used like a compressor the gasket would never fail period ...the biggest pressure come come from the expansion of the burning gas who product is heat ...to answer some ? ..the early heads on a1200 motor are pretty much a complete set up difference than how the 1200 motor comes ...with bigger valves on intake and larger port that feeds the intake of gas charge ...the 1200 block is like a bored and stroked set up over the 1000 motor ...the cam set up is quite aggressive over stock 1200 cam ...if the 75-77 1000 cams are used ...to the point that pistons need notched for clearance ...there has been several though the years attempt this modded setup on a oldwing ....the hooch bike is really the only bike out there that really has a proven record of success modded like this ..all others are all talk and no show ...there are reasons for this ...one guy has tried for yrs to get stock carbs to work on this set up ...with little success ..I tried too but quickly gave it up ..the vacuum signal was just in no way going to work with stock carbs ...this is proof of how different this motor is from stock set up ...it’s not just a mild parts mixing deal it’s drastic ...this let me know that most info I use to go for this mod was all bull shit ...no one could have built the bikes claimed cause the parts just wouldn’t work together ....there were two other bikes being built sort of like mine at the same time ...the other two guys cop an attitude about me cause I didn’t agree with there bull they pushed ...on guy claiming from the start this wouldn’t work as a mod and mouthful of garbage why ...he was right his bike never worked that I ever saw ...claimed it did and then claimed he sold it ...the other bike owner has made statements that all these mods done to the motor over stock was never better than just stock ...well I believe him on his bike he has never ever been able to feed his bike to this day ....so as said as far as I know hooching a 1200 motor as I call it is pretty much my field of success only ....and the ability of this motor is something I on
Y know about till someone builds one that’s successful....that said ..when I make statements that the power of this motor is at the limit of the 1200 clutch ..it’s because it is ...when I say this motor so powerful it brings out all the discounts shaft drive and also the the spinning effect of a boxer motor inline with the bike trying to throw it to the ground it’s because it dose do that ...when I say it will pull the wheel off the ground in second gear in WOT or to it ..it’s cause it can ...the bike is drastically more powerful than anything Honda ever put together period ..and this challenges all parts and set ups on this bike ...the 84 1200 motors gearing though not drastically taller is taller and has brought in a level of parts and setup deals to the table ...as said before by me it bought more load and heat to the table ...this bike ran for yrs with the 86 motor in it and really never had much problems ..the motor was like it didn’t know it was hook up to anything ...it’s changed now with the extra load ...all the Randakks stuff pushed was never really that great ever ..these motors are bad ass and turbos and superchargers are a joke really ..they don’t need them at all ...I know this cause of things I’ve done ....when the hooch is at its best ..it pulls like a farm tractor and runs like a dragster ...that’s hard thing to beat ...and it maxes out everything as in parts in the oldwing setup ...I’m not much of a racer ..but I know hooch will run with anything out there done to a oldwing period ....if it has any flaw what so ever now ..I’d have to say first gear can rev so quick it can lack maybe a bit of gas charge ...maybe ...and the carb is massively jetted as it is over the car setup as it came stock with

Now does the cylinders need a head sealing ring made out of copper like the exhaust is set up on oldwings ..I’d say yes ...or take the chance of blowing the head gaskets every time you get on it ...with there flimsy fire ring and goo set up that melts away from heat ..as said earlier ..run in a pressure set up with no heat the gasket would last dam near forever ....

I’m not trying to make other opinions wrong just stating what’s going on with this bike and the motor it has to inform :heat: thanks to all and your input
 
My take on all this is Honda fell short on bolt placement around the most important place, the cylinders. Add more force at the sealing ring, something has to give. There have been plenty of blown gaskets to show that, on stock engines. IMO, until clamping force is improved, or the gasket itself is improved, you’ll continue to blow them.

I don’t think you’ve ever tried the thicker Cometic head gaskets, have you Joe? I wonder if their thicker compression ring would compress to a larger surface area.
 
No Dan I havnt I don’t really know of them ...hmmm ...I hope they still make them ...copper head gaskets were certainly not the answer as I could do it ...Cometic head gaskets I’ll try looking them up Thanks
 
The info I have in my records (that is, written on the garage wall) price not bad as of a few years ago when I called them. $40 each.

According to the guy I talked to, stock thickness is .42 and their thicker is .59. They make them for the 1000 and 1100 only, same part number.
H1022043 and H1022059. At the time they had no plans to make them for the 1200 but worth asking them again.
https://www.cometic.com

I have heard and read the same gasket for 1000-1200 works. Hmm I don't know about that. There is a clear difference in diameter.
 
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