Oldwing starts no more

[dan filipi]

Your voltage looks great now.

 

[Ansimp]

+1 :good:

 

[JoeBarTeam]

i hope the test ride will prove todays test. then is ok.

i'm happy now after so long trying to repare all gremlins i had.
i was sometimes getting mad checking several times the same circuits at every change or new gremlin. i sure checked the alternator at least 9 times. had to change the starter relay, the regulator at last. i have seen the electrical schemas so many times i think i could made them new by memory! <= exagerated
i know more than before and i don't get so easy afraid with electrics. it can be done. sometimes...

but one thing must be sayed, your help is awesome and makes it easier to go further.

 

[Ansimp]

Good luck with :moped: :yes:

 

[julimike54]

Glad to hear you've sorted out the problem!

 

[JoeBarTeam]

Glad to hear you've sorted out the problem!

im glad too, yes.
today's test ride with a loaded battery showed low charging numbers. without consumers at idle 12.7 volts, up to 4000u/min between 13.0 and 13.2. with consumers allways 0.5 volt less. i hope this is ok with a loaded battery and it would have charged more if the battery wasn't completly loaded. i have to do a second test ride with a less loaded battery and see what will happen.

now i have a little issue with the radio. the channel seeker doesn't react correctly. i will clean all radio contacts for the first time.

greez
joebarteam

 

[dan filipi]

If you’re using the volt meter on the bike, that could be wrong. Mine reads a full 1 volt low. Or try with another volt meter.

 

[Rednaxs60]

dan filipi » Today, 9:51 am[/url]":8rl42fc5]
If you’re using the volt meter on the bike, that could be wrong. Mine reads a full 1 volt low. Or try with another volt meter.

Dan - As you saw on my bike, the dash voltmeter was .6 to .7 VDC lower than what was at the battery. This was with the alternator output wire being connected at the battery. Now that I have put in a new power junction and rewired the charging/electrical system to what it was before I did the alt mod and removed the old wiring, I see 14.1/2 VDC with the dash voltmeter.

JoeBarTeam - hooking the new regulator up directly to the battery will change the reading of the in dash voltmeter. To hook the new regulator up so that the system is working properly, I would recommend hooking the red wire from the regulator to the system to the two red/white wires at the regulator position, and leave this wire connected at the starter solenoid. You can hook the ground wire to the two green wires going into the wiring harness. The alternator wires (yellow) are hooked up as per the directions. You can do this as a trial, and revert to the manufacturers instructions afterwards.

If you do this, let us know if you notice a difference in the voltage indication on the installed voltmeter, and how the system is working.

I had mentioned in a previous post that the black wire to the regulator is a sense wire. This is incorrect. With more research I found this is the 12 VDC excitation wire to the regulator that turns on the regulator and provides full field current at the alternator so that the alternator puts out power to the electrical system immediately on start up, it has nothing to do with the regulator voltage sensing.

The new regulator you have installed is a series regulator that either blocks or allows power from the alternator to the electrical system. This is called a series regulator because the control element is in series with the unregulated output from the alternator. I indicated this in a previous post on regulators.

Hope this helps. Cheers

 

[JoeBarTeam]

If you’re using the volt meter on the bike, that could be wrong. Mine reads a full 1 volt low. Or try with another volt meter.

i compared the voltmeter with the battery and the engine of and on. the difference was not more than 0.1 volt when changing rpms. keeping at a level they say the same voltage.
i will make a try and wire to the red/white and to the green wires to see how it works. i hope this will do right because the other way gives results that doesn't convince me.
i just do not want a empty bat when i am far away from home. once it's enough.

 

[Rednaxs60]

Have the SH4477 RR from Roadster Cycle as well. Sitting on the shelf because my stator went and I installed my version of the Poorboy external alt mod. Had the same discussion with them as well regarding the install of this regulator. Only issue I had when I did try to install it was where to install it as it is significantly larger than the OEM SH847. Picture of the two - Roadster Cycle regulator on left. Both still work.

 

[Ansimp]

Rednaxs60 » Sat Nov 25, 2017 8:57 am[/url]":29ho7kxw]
Have the SH4477 RR from Roadster Cycle as well. Sitting on the shelf because my stator went and I installed my version of the Poorboy external alt mod. Had the same discussion with them as well regarding the install of this regulator. Only issue I had when I did try to install it was where to install it as it is significantly larger than the OEM SH847. Picture of the two - Roadster Cycle regulator on left. Both still work.

The Mofset regulators are normally an FH part number unless it is a dodgy Chinese shunt regulator manufacturer that is trying to make you think it is a Mofset reg. With a Mofset (switchmode) regulator you will get more stable charging voltage. With the Honda one that I fitted to the Buell it was pretty much a constant 14.2 volts no matter what the revs were. This is one of the features that I like with the Mofset regs, that and the fact that they only draw the required current necessary from the stator. :good:

 

[JoeBarTeam]

Have the SH4477 RR from Roadster Cycle as well. Sitting on the shelf because my stator went and I installed my version of the Poorboy external alt mod. Had the same discussion with them as well regarding the install of this regulator. Only issue I had when I did try to install it was where to install it as it is significantly larger than the OEM SH847. Picture of the two - Roadster Cycle regulator on left. Both still work.

it's really larger than the oem regulator. for installing it at the same place i have modified the false tank cover. see the pictures. one of the right side still original and one left side modified. this way it just goes. i could not imagine where else to install. no place anywhere!

 

[JoeBarTeam]

the work is done. the dash voltmeter shows allways 0.1 volt more than the multimeter. i have wired the red mosfet wire to the 2 red/white wires and the black mosfet wire to the 2 green wires to see the difference. there is a difference.
now i get battery voltage at idle. 13.1 volts at 1200 u/min, 14.40 at 2000 u/min, 14.0 at 3000 u/min and 14.3 at 4000 u/min.
this is without consumers. if i make the normal driving lights the voltage drops 1 to 1.5 volts down to battery voltage and goes up again with the lights of. this would mean as long as i ride with consumers the battery won't be charged. do i still have an electric gremlin somewhere?
greez
joebarteam

 

[slabghost]

Sounds like it's working right now. Battery shouldn't be charging all the time. Just when it needs charged. The higher output with loads is the alternator doing it's job feeding the loads. No load fully charged battery no extra volts needed.

 

[Rednaxs60]

Good to hear that you have remedied the voltage issue. Regarding your driving lights, how are these hooked into the system? Lots of discussion as to how and where to hook new/additional loads into the electrical circuit. What is the amp draw of these driving lights?

This sounds to me like you have these hooked directly to the battery. If so, I would find a connection from the fuse block to hook into. Recommend looking at the fuse block and find a feed from there. Might make a difference.

Agree with slaghost. Once the battery is charged back to 100% state of charge, it is only getting a trickle charge, and is a "passenger" until the bike needs to be started again, or the alternator output is less than the battery charge, then the battery supplements the electrical system power requirements.

From what you mention, 14.2 is good and the regulator is doing its job. As long as the voltage doesn't drop to 12.7 VDC or less, the battery will stay charged and the system should operate fine.

Still recommend looking into how the driving lights are wired, and the power required to drive these. There are lights out there that use very little power and provide good illumination.

Cheers

 

[Rednaxs60]

Have been doing more thinking on this issue. The more research I do, I find that there are a lot of myths surrounding what we do to the electrical system, and how we do this.

If you will indulge me for this post, I will explain my thought process.

The design of the GW wiring is such that it has a power junction - see pic:

This is where the red wire from the starter solenoid is joined to the regulator output wire(s) before the regulator output wire goes to the starter solenoid. I found this to be a key junction in the installation of my external alternator, and JoeBarTeam has corroborated this as well by changing the wiring of the new regulator to suit the OEM installed wiring harness. His electrical system is now working well, and the dash voltage reading is correct.

The OEM schematics are quite detailed regardless of the bike, and all loads are after this junction (upstream from the junction) and mostly after the ignition switch. This is designed specifically to achieve a well operating electrical system. The only power going to the starter solenoid from the alternator is to charge the battery back to 100% after which the battery only receives a trickle charge.

JoeBarTeam mentions that the voltage drops and stays low when the driving lights are turned on - I would surmise that the power feed for these driving lights is from the battery. Voltage drop of 1.0 to 1.5 VDC. What should happen is there should be a voltage drop, then the regulator compensates for this drop and the electrical system voltage should return to the mean electrical system voltage of 14.2 VDC, plus or minus of course, but as close as possible.

Since the regulator is visually not compensating for this voltage drop, I am inclined to think that the regulator is sensing a large voltage drop and comparing it to the regulator internal reference voltage of 14.2 VDC and is increasing the alternator output to compensate, but not achieving the aim of returning to 14.2 VDC. Since the electrical system voltage is not increasing and returning to the regulator reference voltage of 14.2 VDC (or close to), the current in the electrical system is probably too high and damage to electrical components could occur, including the internal alternator.

if the electrical system voltage is extremely low, in this case by 1 to 1.5 VDC, the alternator output through the regulator has to be increased to compensate. This is how a regulator works.

Since the electrical system voltage drop is 1 to 1.5 VDC when the driving lights are turned on and the alternator output is not sufficient to compensate for this drop - this is corroborated by the fact the electrical system voltage does not return back to the mean value of 14.2 VDC - two issues may be at play. Where the load is connected into the electrical system is wrong, or the driving lights are a huge short bleeding power off to ground.

I submit that the issue is probably where the driving lights get power from. In this regard, I would recommend that the power connection for the driving lights be temporarily attached to where the regulator output wire is connected to the OEM harness red/white wires. The voltage at this junction is 14.2 VDC and since all electrical components are rated for 14.2 VDC - if not and just for 12 VDC, there would be a lot of electrical component failures - I surmise that the system will react to the additional load and the electrical system voltage will be maintained at or around 14.2 VDC, not the 13.2 to 12.7 VDC as it is operating now when the driving lights are turned on. The power feed for the lights can also be as I mentioned in my previous post after the ignition switch, or from the red wire to the ignition switch, but upstream of the power junction as shown in the attached schematic. If the power feed connection to the driving lights from the electrical system is at the output from the regulator, or on the wire going to the ignition switch, it will be live at all times and this must be considered if a permanent connection is considered.

Just my thoughts on the issue.

Cheers

 

[joedrum]

Sounds super sound to me ...I will be trying this type of thinking on hooch

 

[Ansimp]

With a Mofset regulator voltage will be very stable and not jump around as much, the only time you will get low readings is when the revs are too low for the load.
Here is the Buell repair link with the second hand Honda Mofset regulator that I used.
viewtopic.php?f=7&t=9139&hilit=Buell&start=15#p138432

 

[JoeBarTeam]

hi oldwingers
i did a mistake when i wrote about the driving lights. with the voltage drop i ment the normal oem lights of the bike without accessory lamps. i also have driving lamps. they take together 36 watts, are directly wired to the battery through a relay and a fuse and i use them as day lights so i don't have to use the oem lights. with the oem lights i have 13 position leds and 4 brake leds that i can turn separetly on and of. this take only a few watts together.
the voltage drop of 1 to 1.5 volts are when i put the oem lights on or the driving lamps on or all lamps (with leds) at once. it doesn't matter what lamps i turn on for the voltage drop or the high of the voltage drop. this means for me that it doesn't matter how the driving lamps are wired in this case. right?

greez
joebarteam

 

[Rednaxs60]

Have to disagree. I agree with the voltage drop, but not that the voltage should stay at that level. The electrical system is designed so that when loads are applied, the voltage should drop but the regulator should increase the voltage output to compensate for this drop and the voltage should recover and return to the 14.2 VDC.

Where do all the position and extra brake lights get power from. Sounds to me that you have the same issue with these as well.

Put a voltmeter on the connection between the regulator output wire where it joins the red/white wire - confirm voltage at 14.2 VDC. Take the driving light(s) wire from the battery and connect to this connection. Start the bike and see how the electrical system works with this setup. Worst case is nothing changes and you can revert to how the driving lights were originally connected.

If it works and the electrical system reacts as I think it might, make this a permanent connection. Better still connect a 12 gauge wire to this location and install a new power bar that you can add loads to in the future. I would then look into the running/brake lights you have installed and determine how these are connected into the system, and rectify that connection.

My main focus is getting the system to react as it should, maintaining 14.2 VDC at all times.

Having failed all this, install an amp meter in the system and check the system current. Your bike has a 350 watt stator that will give you approximately 25 amps max at 14.2 VDC - I used 14.2 VDC because the regulator is designed to maintain an electrical system voltage of 14.2 VDC. Could be overloading the system.

Hope this helps.

Cheers